Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda?

[darkbard]

Also, [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION], you really seem to have a chip on your shoulder about your level of education and that of others. You shouldn't: your posts here demonstrate you to be plenty smart, and degrees are merely pieces of paper, not the be-all-end-all measure of cognitive ability. That said, many times you post about academics or intellectuals as if they are not too part of your "real world." Do you not see how that might come across as dismissive and offensive (plus, just plain wrong!)?

 

[Bedrockgames]

Also, [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION], you really seem to have a chip on your shoulder about your level of education and that of others. You shouldn't: your posts here demonstrate you to be plenty smart, and degrees are merely pieces of paper, not the be-all-end-all measure of cognitive ability. That said, many times you post about academics or intellectuals as if they are not too part of your "real world." Do you not see how that might come across as dismissive and offensive (plus, just plain wrong!)?

I am not trying to come off as having a chip on my shoulder. I worked hard for my education and respect the teachers who helped educate me. I just think there is a narrow wing of academia represented in this conversation (one more from the literary criticism side perhaps). That isn’t the only way to look at the world. And while I don’t have a chip, I think people don’t realize some of these concepts are complex for those not trained in them (just coming from a different discipline where words sometimes mean different things, it has taken me years to really understand some of these arguments). But I do think there is s tendency in the gaming community give people value based on education or perceived intelligence. And I do find that troubling sometimes. I think being intelligent is a great trait. But isn’t the only thing that gives people value. And when it is abused, it can be very harmful. A lot of the sneering we see in these discussions is because people have reached a different conclusion about trope. I think a lot of that stems from the issues I raised. You can even be morally right about something but abuse that position. I remember shattering my grandfather’s view of Columbus when I first went to school and I learned about his atrocities. My grandfather was coming from a very different place (he was s proud Italian who grew up very poor, without much education and believed Columbus was a hero), but not a bad place. I did have a morally defensive position in that discussion. But I was cruel about. I think people are failing to see their own cruelty in these discussions.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I see: you are somehow being compelled to post the truth here. And the rest of us are likewise compelled to participate in this conversation but somehow won't represent how we really feel for fear of some kind of reprisal. Yeah, that must be it.

I think it is important, given what happens in history when bad ideas take hold and people don’t speak up because they don’t want to appear stupid or be attacked, for people to give their real opinion on big issues like this. A lot of people share my view but are not saying anything because they are afraid of being dog piled by smart posters who are very skilled at debate.

 

[S'mon]

Also, [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION], you really seem to have a chip on your shoulder about your level of education and that of others. You shouldn't: your posts here demonstrate you to be plenty smart, and degrees are merely pieces of paper, not the be-all-end-all measure of cognitive ability.

I guess conversely we academics, who like playing with ideas, and sometimes taking a bit of a devil's-advocate position, could maybe stand to be more cognisant of how our words may be taken by those outside our milieu.

 

[Doug McCrae]

The problem with The Lord of the Rings goes well beyond orcs' physical characteristics. It contains references to many real world historical events, languages and cultures. It also has absolute evil and absolute good, and these are associated with real world peoples. Yes the Haradrim, Easterlings and other groups of men aren't pure evil, but they fight on its side.

Some examples:
The Shire is based on rural England.
Anglo-Saxon represents the language of the Riders of Rohan.
The Corsairs of Umbar are a reference to the Barbary pirates.
The mumakil of the Haradrim derive from African elephants.
Gondor derives in part from the Byzantine Empire.
Minas Ithil, conquered by Sauron's forces and renamed Minas Morgul, references Constantinople/Istanbul.
The Battle of the Pelennor Fields is partly based on the 1683 Battle of Vienna which was decided by a Polish cavalry charge.
The Battle of Helm's Deep is based partly on the 1565 Siege of Malta where a small force of the Knights Hospitaller defended the island against the Ottoman Empire.

"Bradford's account of the climax of the siege has a mine exploding with a huge blast, breaching the town walls and causing stone and dust to fall into the ditch, with the Turks charging even as the debris was still falling. He also has the 70-year-old de Valette saving the day by leading towards the Turks some hundred troops that had been waiting in the Piazza of Birgu." - From the Wikipedia article.​

 

[Bedrockgames]

I see: you are somehow being compelled to post the truth here. And the rest of us are likewise compelled to participate in this conversation but somehow won't represent how we really feel for fear of some kind of reprisal. Yeah, that must be it.

No one is forcing me. I am forcing myself. I don’t want to be in this position. I don’t like it and it is very risky. There is nothing to gain and everything to lose. And it is clear the vast majority of posters disagree with me. But the majority can be wrong and I think we have a responsibility to say when we think it is wrong.

 

[darkbard]

No one is forcing me. I am forcing myself. I don’t want to be in this position. I don’t like it and it is very risky. There is nothing to gain and everything to lose. And it is clear the vast majority of posters disagree with me. But the majority can be wrong and I think we have a responsibility to say when we think it is wrong.

The part of your post that precipitated mine was your charge that those of us posting in favor of the possibility of reading orcs as partaking in racist tropes, etc. are somehow disingenuously refraining from showing you how we really feel about the matter. That we are cowardly and hiding behind groupthink, whereas you are the lone, bold champion of truth.

 

[Aldarc]

I have stated the same basic opinion over the course fo the thread and it keeps getting reframed or recharacterized. I have no problem being pinned to actual positions that I express (though obviously an opinion could be expressed inelegantly and require clarification). But I keep getting responses like "so why don't you care about group X, or why do you think your X is more important than the dying babies". These responses feel like they are twisting my words. Now you are literally looking for coded language (coded language I know for a fact I am not using).

I'm not sure if the tone and content of your posts have endeared yourself to warrant much else. You have indeed not shown much regard about others who are harmed by the issue or find it offensive. You believe it is a non-issue, that others are looking for offense where it does not exist, and both of these propositions ignore direct evidence to the contrary of posters who are legitimately offended, including by those who exist within the demographics targeted, whether directly or indirectly, by these depictions. Even giving you a generous reading, this makes you at least tone deaf to the offense others have received, if not suspiciously turning a blind eye to the problem when presented with contrary evidence. Perhaps when you do show that you care, then we could begin to say that these responses are inappropriate.

Add onto this your position has repeatedly sought to drown this topic in ambiguity so as to remove the issue of colonial undertones of orcs from (1) any reproach, and thereby (2) prevent it from being subsequently addressed. When you constantly ask "But where do we draw the line?" then little to nothing can actually be done to address the problem, because it seeks to force the discussion to be about the parameters of the line (that is also intentionally being blurred) rather than the substance of the issues at stake.

I'd also point out many of the posters tearing apart my position (including yourself) are a group of posters I have longstanding disagreements with over other topics (sometimes very intense disagreements about playstyle). I would ask them how objective they really think they are being in evaluating my position.

Then I'd naturally point out that this is a circumstantial ad hominem that seeks to discredit those, including myself, from making criticisms about your argument or the subject in question as if we are just somehow predisposed to disagree with you rather than engage the merits of the arguments presented.

You are completely putting words my mouth now

If only 1 out of 5 missed the mark, that's a good bout of Battleship.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The part of your post that precipitated mine was your charge that those of us posting in favor of the possibility of reading orcs as partaking in racist tropes, etc. are somehow disingenuously refraining from showing you how we really feel about the matter. That we are cowardly and hiding behind groupthink, whereas you are the lone, bold champion of truth.

I wasn’t saying that at all. I think you clearly believe what you say and you are well intentioned. But I know for a fact many people agree with me and are afraid to weigh in (because I’ve spoken to such people). This happens on social media all the time. Normally most people ignore it to avoid the headache. But bad ideas and bad ideologies can take root that way. So I think it is increasingly important for people to give their honest opinion and not just the opinion that is good for business or keeps them out of trouble. That is why I said to Hussar that I welcomed his viewpoint even if I disagreed.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The part of your post that precipitated mine was your charge that those of us posting in favor of the possibility of reading orcs as partaking in racist tropes, etc. are somehow disingenuously refraining from showing you how we really feel about the matter. That we are cowardly and hiding behind groupthink, whereas you are the lone, bold champion of truth.

This is the post I meant to quote in my previous post. Will fix when I get to computer. Sorry for any confusion