TSR The Making and Breaking of Deities & Demigods

[Yaarel]

Finally, I will say that this book inspired my interest in myth, legends, and religion. It served as spring board to investigate other cultures and beliefs. I think that is a good thing

It is only a good thing if the representation of other cultures is accurate.

By the way, I own the book, the original one.

I can say its presentation of Scandinavian animisms is ... inaccurate.

Same goes for Native American animisms.

Vedic texts are sacred texts to modern Hindus.



Here is the rule of thumb.

If it is too sensitive to talk about our own religions in our own countries, then for similar reasons, it is probably too sensitive to talk about other peoples religions in other peoples countries.

So until D&D players become mature enough to talk about Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Atheism, and other traditions, with some sensitivity, we are probably not mature enough to talk about other reallife spiritual heritages either.

 

[Rhineglade]

Without a doubt, THIS was my absolute favorite rule book from the 1st edition. Of course, as a pre-teen boy, I had to love the pictures of Isis, Loviatar, Aphrodite, etc. Seeing the gods of various mythologies represented in game terms was fascinating to me and helped to foster my love of mythology to this day.

 

[dave2008]

It is only a good thing if the representation of other cultures is accurate.

I think that is too high standard. Accuracy is nearly impossible in current religions, not to mention dead ones. What is accurate to one practitioner of a faith and be false and blasphemy to another of the same faith. Accuracy is in the I of the beholder.

By the way, I own the book, the original one.

I can say its presentation of Scandinavian animisms is ... inaccurate.

Same goes for Native American animisms.

Again, I think accuracy, or complete accuracy, is to high a standard. I would go for intent and inspiration.

Also, I will clarify that the inaccuracies are your opinion, not fact. Now, of course we have a lot more information than James had (despite the 5 years of research), and given how subjective myths, legends, and religions are - I would find it highly likely that a game supplement would have some inaccuracies. To claim 100% accuracy is the place of faith and religion, not a RPG supplement.

Vedic texts are sacred texts to modern Hindus.

So is the bible to Christians, that's why we got the D&D satanic scare in the US. What is your point?

Here is the rule of thumb.

If it is too sensitive to talk about our own religions in our own countries, then for similar reasons, it is probably too sensitive to talk about other peoples religions in other peoples countries.

So until D&D players become mature enough to talk about Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Atheism, and other traditions, with some sensitivity, we are probably not mature enough to talk about other reallife spiritual heritages either.

Again that is to strict of a standard - someone is always sensitive when it comes to religion. I personally don't find it sensitive to discuss religion, in fact I enjoy it. So is it okay for me to make a RPG product that involves RW religions?

Ugh, I am regretting this response. I don't see continuing this conversation going well and I get the feeling that this subject is too sensitive for you. Maybe you should take your own advice. I think it is perhaps the best approach in this context. The internet is not the best conduit for sensitivity.

 

[billd91]

It is only a good thing if the representation of other cultures is accurate.

By the way, I own the book, the original one.

I can say its presentation of Scandinavian animisms is ... inaccurate.

Same goes for Native American animisms.

Vedic texts are sacred texts to modern Hindus.



Here is the rule of thumb.

If it is too sensitive to talk about our own religions in our own countries, then for similar reasons, it is probably too sensitive to talk about other peoples religions in other peoples countries.

So until D&D players become mature enough to talk about Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Atheism, and other traditions, with some sensitivity, we are probably not mature enough to talk about other reallife spiritual heritages either.

This is the impossible standard that has wormed its way into some segments of the gaming population. What it fails to recognize is that pretty much all RPG playing with any kind of reality-inspired world building is going run afoul of them. And yes, that includes pseudo-medieval role playing games based around Europe. Include anything and there will be some nitpicker complaining. This is true even if someone incorporating the cultural elements is an insider because not all insider perspectives will agree on the significance of things within their own culture.

In fact, I'd even say that the inclusion of imaginative or even modern elements guarantees inaccuracy because it will change the context of everything else. And, as a hobby, we need to acknowledge there needs to be a balance between modern political sensitivities and the glosses and abstractions necessary to incorporate our inspirations into our gaming without bogging ourselves down. We need to start respecting serious, good faith efforts and directing our ire at grossly negligent and bad faith efforts.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Never had a copy of Deities & Demigods. We borrowed a copy from the library back in the day (oddly being one of the only D&D hardcovers they had that wasn't marked as missing, likely stolen, other than the Dragon magazine issues), but it wasn’t until it was, ahem, reincarnated as Legends & Lore that I purchased it. Not too long ago, I did come across an original printing at Half-Price Books, but the asking value was more than I was willing to spend on a book just for the Cthulhu and Melnibonean sections. The collectors' impulse only goes so far.

 

[Yaarel]

I think that is too high standard.

To avoid falsehoods is a reasonable standard.

For example, the Norse mythos.

Deities & Demigods makes many false statements.

"Balder (God of Beauty)"
• Baldr is a vættr, an animistic nature being, not a polytheistic god.
• Baldr has nothing to do with being worshiped, nor being worshiped for his ‘beauty’.
• Baldr is daylight. Literal daylight. The same daylight streams thru our windows.
• Daylight is beautiful.
• Daylight reveals truth.
• Daylight brings new life.
• Daylight brings new hope − especially in northerly dark winters.

"Valkyries. These warrior maidens ride pegasi."
• Since when has any Norse text ever mentioned the word ‘pesasi’? Certainly not in relation to the valkyrjur.

"Thor. Chaotic Good."
• Þórr literally is social order. If anything he is Lawful Neutral.
• Norwegian Norse view him as rescuing humans, so at least here, Lawful Good (with hints of Paladin smiting) seems fair.

"Odin. Neutral Good."
• Óðinn is a Danish thing, Freyr is a Swedish thing, and Þórr is a Norwegian thing.
• In the Norwegian version of Óðinn, he is treacherous, probably Evil.
• Óðinn is literally cosmic order, astronomical cycles, seasonal cycles, etcetera.
• Probably Lawful Neutral, but again too treacherous. Neutral at best, probably Neutral Evil.

"Norns. three."
• There are many nornir.
• The three jǫtnar nornir are more about the fate of the cosmos, like when Ragnarǫk happens.
• But when it comes to the lives of human individuals, the alfar nornir are way more important.
• The jǫtnar Nornir are called Neutral, and probably fair enough, cruel inscrutable fate
• but a Norse tradition views these Nornir dooming the æsir in Ragnarǫk in order to protect humanity from them

Frey (sunshine and the elves)
• ok but peripheral
• Freyr is specifically the natural phenomenon of sex
• In addition to sexuality, Freyr connotes wealth (fertility) and peace (good relationships)

And so on. I can continue at length about the many falsifications in the Deities & Demigods.

It isnt just that the Deities & Demigods is wrong, it is the book is wrong about some of the most central concepts that matter to these cultures. It is misappropriation.

I am just giving examples pertaining to Norse spiritual heritages.

At the same time, I am familiar with many religions because of my anthropology, and because of friends who adhere to those religions.

The Deities & Demigods is false about other peoples sacred beliefs.

 

[Dausuul]

So is the bible to Christians, that's why we got the D&D satanic scare in the US. What is your point?

I won't speak for Yaarel, and I know this is treading close to the religion line; but I think it's pretty relevant that while D&D draws heavily on Biblical themes, it carefully avoids any direct representation of the Jewish or Christian religions. Deities & Demigods does not have a "Judeo-Christian Mythos" chapter. We are not told Moses's cleric level; we do not know if the Angel of the Lord is a planetar or a solar; we do not have a hit point total for Jesus.

It's fair to ask that similar respect be given to other real-world belief systems.

 

[Sacrosanct]

The Deities & Demigods is false about other peoples sacred beliefs.

You mean D&D isn't real!? Oh my goodness, what will I do now?!

*Edit* OK, that is a bit hyperbolic, but I guess my point is that we have people who believe in the Jedi religion as devoutly as people believe in their Christian, Pagan, Muslim, etc religions. So does that mean we can't have games about Star Wars? Because let's be real, the only difference between religions is how long people have been believing them. There is no proof any one religion is true or not, whether it's Christianity or Jedi or anything in between, so you can't really say "Well, these religions deserve special treatment, but not those over there."

 

[Sacrosanct]

I won't speak for Yaarel, and I know this is treading close to the religion line; but I think it's pretty relevant that while D&D draws heavily on Biblical themes, it carefully avoids any direct representation of the Jewish or Christian religions. Deities & Demigods does not have a "Judeo-Christian Mythos" chapter. We are not told Moses's cleric level; we do not know if the Angel of the Lord is a planetar or a solar; we do not have a hit point total for Jesus.

It's fair to ask that similar respect be given to other real-world belief systems.

Stats for Satan (the Christian version) were in a 1979 Dragon Magazine (#28). Angles were covered in #35. And Testament from Green Ronin does exactly what you're saying it does (statting out Biblical NPC)s

 

[Yaarel]

Generally, cultures are flattered when outsiders take an interest in them. But when outsiders start saying stuff that is wrong, and then silencing those cultures when they are trying to clarify something. It comes across as less than flattering.



Probably the main problem with the representation of Native American tribes is how Deities & Demigods mishmashes them together. It is sorta equivalent to saying Chinese, Japanese, and Korean are all the same.

The Native tribes are separate nations with separate belief systems. Lots of cognate concepts, but different meanings in different cultures. While they are mainly animistic, they evolve differently. Some tribes are strict animists, in which case the word ‘god’ is wrong. Some are monotheistic animists. Other tribes are polytheistic animists. The mishmash of disparate tribes does little to authentically represent these tribes.

Omission of certain parts of the world also distorts presentation. I notice the absence of African animisms, Australian Aborigines, the ‘shaman’ proper of north Asia, Russian folkbeliefs, Tibetan Buddhism. Not that D&D needs an encyclopedia, but a list of reallife belief systems of reallife cultures, does well to be diplomatic. Not all of Africa is Egypt.