D&D 5E Improving Two-Weapon Fighting

[FrogReaver]

How so? If you have to spend a bonus action before making the attack, you can't really crit fish. It's not a bonus action after you hit. It's exactly like the smite spells.

The game went to lengths to avoid people using two spell slots in the same round, except for reactions.

Is it established that this hypothetical bonus action requires you use the extra damage on your next hit?

 

[Xeviat]

Is it established that this hypothetical bonus action requires you use the extra damage on your next hit?

Yeah, just like the Smite spells.

 

[Xeviat]

"The game went to lengths to avoid people using two spell slots in the same round, except for reactions."

Csn you rlsboratebon thst claim?

As far as I know the only " length" they went to was the bonus sction rule - which allows two spells a turn but limits the one to csntrips.

Dmites from paladin allow you to spend one dpell dlot per hit, do easily up to three spell slots in your turn at fifth if you get a bonus sction swing.

The various effects that give you extra actions and turns would tend to slow extra spells - iirc like the fighter action surge.

Seems to me they have done more to restrict you from getting more than one sneak attack (other than reactions ) than yo stop you from spending more than one spell slot.

What are these lengths you mention thry have gone to?


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Yeah that. Also, if you look at later designs, The Warlock's Eldritch Smite from Xanathar's, are limited to once per round.

Since Eldritch Smite grants the prone effect, I may want to buff my nerfed Holy Smite.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yeah that. Also, if you look at later designs, The Warlock's Eldritch Smite from Xanathar's, are limited to once per round.

Since Eldritch Smite grants the prone effect, I may want to buff my nerfed Holy Smite.

You go for it. I like [MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION] implementation better. You don't have to change a blazillion other rules to get it to work.

 

[Xeviat]

It's not four attacks though, it's the same current three but with an additional chance for a lesser second attack should you miss the actual Attack action attack. The extra is a d6 with no stat mods, and all told it's probably less impactful than just having advantage on that first attack, and having advantage on your initial attacks greatly lessens the impact of TWF, whereas it makes the other styles straight up better. I don't see how it's OTT.

d8, because Dual Wielder still takes away the light weapon requirement. Does that change your calculations much?

 

[Fenris-77]

d8, because Dual Wielder still takes away the light weapon requirement. Does that change your calculations much?

Not really. Someone spent a feat on that silly shizz, it should do something. Or less than nothing anyway, one of the two.

It really is just rerolls minus stat mods. I don't think that's OP in a game where advantage is king. If it somehow stacked with, say, elven accuracy or the common advantage grabs (or whatever) I'd probably feel differently, but it doesn't. Attacking with advantage takes a lot of the juice out of this proposed version of TWF (which I'm fine with). It is good for getting sneak attack off, but I'm fine with that too.

Hmm, I'm trying to think of a DPR or nova superstar build that could abuse this rule and I can't think of one. Someone may though, and that would be a good litmus test.

 

[Xeviat]

Not really. Someone spent a feat on that silly shizz, it should do something. Or less than nothing anyway, one of the two.

It really is just rerolls minus stat mods. I don't think that's OP in a game where advantage is king. If it somehow stacked with, say, elven accuracy or the common advantage grabs (or whatever) I'd probably feel differently, but it doesn't. Attacking with advantage takes a lot of the juice out of this proposed version of TWF (which I'm fine with). It is good for getting sneak attack off, but I'm fine with that too.

Hmm, I'm trying to think of a DPR or nova superstar build that could abuse this rule and I can't think of one. Someone may though, and that would be a good litmus test.

Oh, I'm not saying your idea was bad, just wanted to point out that your feat would do a little more additional damage

I just would prefer to not make a fix into a feat. My idea requires a lot of other little changes, but I like to make house rules anyway.

 

[Fenris-77]

The logic of making at least part of the fix into a feat is to have TWF scale the same way as the other fighting styles, which is to say have at least some of the tasty bits gated behind a feat. It makes sense to me. The proposed fix we're talking about here both boosts TWF for the non-feat user (the reroll basic attack misses part), which is badly needed, but also adds some juice to the more specialized style characters who would like TWF to be even moderately competitive with the other styles once feats are counted in (which it currently is not). I think it's pretty balanced, overall.

We all have our own tastes in rules hacking of course, so YMMV.

 

[TwoSix]

Not really. Someone spent a feat on that silly shizz, it should do something. Or less than nothing anyway, one of the two.

It really is just rerolls minus stat mods. I don't think that's OP in a game where advantage is king. If it somehow stacked with, say, elven accuracy or the common advantage grabs (or whatever) I'd probably feel differently, but it doesn't. Attacking with advantage takes a lot of the juice out of this proposed version of TWF (which I'm fine with). It is good for getting sneak attack off, but I'm fine with that too.

Hmm, I'm trying to think of a DPR or nova superstar build that could abuse this rule and I can't think of one. Someone may though, and that would be a good litmus test.

If you think of one, let me know. I would guess Hexblade something something, or maybe a crit-fisher. I tried a Vengeance Paladin with Hunter's Mark up, but it's not any better than PAM in that case.

Most of my calculations showed that GWM and SS scale much better as accuracy bonuses stack up (once your hit w/ advantage gets into the 95% range). So doing something like permanent advantage + Elven Accuracy won't really help either. Although I might try a crit-fishing Champion 15 to see what the numbers look like. Dex Melee with the -X/+X mechanic isn't currently in the game, so it's worth putting it through its paces.

 

[Fenris-77]

If you think of one, let me know. I would guess Hexblade something something, or maybe a crit-fisher. I tried a Vengeance Paladin with Hunter's Mark up, but it's not any better than PAM in that case.

Most of my calculations showed that GWM and SS scale much better as accuracy bonuses stack up (once your hit w/ advantage gets into the 95% range). So doing something like permanent advantage + Elven Accuracy won't really help either. Although I might try a crit-fishing Champion 15 to see what the numbers look like. Dex Melee with the -X/+X mechanic isn't currently in the game, so it's worth putting it through its paces.

This is really the key to this whole idea IMO, I agree that Dex probably should have a -X/+x option, or at least something like it. I think the Champion would be a good test though. If you're fishing for crits you might actually want a reduced chance to hit and a reroll, although advantage does already have that mostly covered. I'd be interested to see if TWF with out permanent advantage works well for crits. You crunch it, I'll read it.

I would probably prefer to have TWF use something other than -X/+X, just for variety's sake, but it's probably way easier to balance when you keep the mechanic the same. I'd rather see something with combo attacks, but I haven't had a great idea about how to make that work.