D&D 5E Consequences of Failure

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What some people are calling "goal and approach" is just "players say what they do and hope to achieve with reasonable specificity." It's nothing more than that.

The full thing (for me) might be, "Goal and approach, followed by dice rolls only in the case of uncertain outcomes AND meaningful consequences, of which the player should be aware before committing to a roll."

EDIT:

And then the question becomes: because dice rolling with risk/reward is fun, how can we take some of the cases where the consequences aren't obvious and create fun challenges?
 

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To be fair, in all the recent discussion of preferred action adjudication styles, “goal and approach” has become a bit of a shorthand for the style favored by folks on one side of the fence, which does involve both requiring a goal and approach, and not resorting to using dice unless there are meaningful consequences. That’s probably my fault for coining that particular shorthand.

Yes, so as I say above "goal and approach" is just "players say what they do and hope to achieve with reasonable specificity." The issue of "meaningful consequences for failure" applies even to people who don't require players to do that (e.g. people who are fine with players asking to make ability checks with no reasonable specificity). It's not unique to "goal and approach." Of course, that doesn't mean DMs MUST play that way, but that section of the DMG p. 237 is universal as far as these concepts go.
 

And then the question becomes: because dice rolling with risk/reward is fun, how can we take some of the cases where the consequences aren't obvious and create fun challenges?

I'm not certain this is anything one can plan for. The context of the situation that is unfolding will tell. Present a situation that is rife with drama and ask the players what they do. The rest will take care of itself.
 

Let's talk about knowledge!

Specifically, the player does not know X, but wants to know if his/her character does know X.

I'd really love to find a way to resolve these situations using "GaAwUOaMC" (Goal and Approach with Uncertain Outcome and Meaningful Consequences.) Not necessarily every time somebody wants to know something, but neither do I always want to resolve that with DM fiat.

Wrong answers are a possibility, but I neither like secret rolls, nor leaving that to roleplaying on non-secret rolls.

What about obviously low rolls are no result, but close-but-no-cigar rolls are wrong information?
 

I'm not certain this is anything one can plan for. The context of the situation that is unfolding will tell. Present a situation that is rife with drama and ask the players what they do. The rest will take care of itself.

Yes, and:
  1. In the same way that practicing scales makes one a better musician, playing out scenarios in discussion can improve ones ability to improvise.
  2. This is more fun than that for which I get paid.
 

I'd really love to find a way to resolve these situations using "GaAwUOaMC" (Goal and Approach with Uncertain Outcome and Meaningful Consequences.) Not necessarily every time somebody wants to know something, but neither do I always want to resolve that with DM fiat.

Let's just call it "guacamole" since it seems that some people really love it and others can't stand it.
 


Let's say that not knowing the information results in both a 24 hour delay, and some gold to pay off Jimmy.

If the player doesn't even try to remember the information, it's gonna take 24 hours and gold.

If the player tries and fails...it's gonna take 24 hours and gold.

Where's the cost of trying?

Boilerplate: I'm not saying the rules require such a cost. This is a discussion about how these scenarios could have such a cost.





I agree it doesn't have to be immediate, but:
  1. It has to actually be a cost, in terms of something "worse" than not trying at all. (See above.)
  2. The player should be aware of the potential cost when deciding whether to "go for it." I suppose a general knowledge that the DM will impose costs could, in theory, suffice, but it makes it hard to decide whether it's worth the risk. It's that decision that I find interesting and fun.

I think I see what you're getting at. I guess I don't see the point of actively discouraging people from trying to use their abilities.

I have a guy in my game that's built his concept around being an archaeologist/historian. So it makes sense that I'm going to me to throw in things where that investment helps the group. Sometimes I'll just give him info that others wouldn't know, but other times it makes sense that it's more obscure and not automatic even for him.

I don't want him second guessing whether he would try to remember; he's going to try to remember because that's the nature of his character.

There are some scenarios where there's obvious risk and reward. Trying to walk that tightrope over the lava pit has an obvious cost of failure. But every single check? I can't see how that would make the game more enjoyable.

The only negative result of trying would be bad memory. Because they remembered incorrectly, they get confused and remember the wrong info.

Maybe I should just rephrase. You've decided your approach before you've defined your goal. What's your goal? What impact on gameplay are you trying to achieve?
 

I think there is a lot more agreement in this thread between everyone than you might at first thing.

If in fact they will eventually find the thing if they search long enough, and they state that they intend as a methodology to do a thorough search, then there is no need to make a roll for the search. They eventually find the thing. No roll needed. Likewise, if they will eventually pick the lock if they try long enough, and they state the intention to keep trying until they succeed, there is no need to make any rolls. They simply open the lock.

None of that is I think controversial.

However, one approach that I tend to find coming up a lot in threads like this is that, if the player proposes to pick a long, then to make that lock picking meaningful, the GM needs to on the fly invent an evil ritual that is happening or invent a guard that might be coming along, so that you have immediate impactful stakes and a dramatic situation that makes this proposed act of picking the lock have a meaningful consequence of failure.

And I'm suggesting that in the long run, that's a bad idea. Just get through the lock or the search quickly and on to what is meaningful. There is no need to make everything have dramatic stakes, and at some point there is little difference between trying to make everything have dramatic stakes and antagonistic DMing or railroading.
If you keep track of time, then the loss of time is a perfectly viable cost. In the lock-pick example, I “charge” 10 minutes for slow, subtle actions. Like searching a room or picking a lock. I don’t charge any time for loud, fast actions (like kicking a door down). But, every hour I roll for random encounters.

So my players always have the opportunity to weigh whether a slow, subtle approach or a fast, loud approach is worth taking.

EC, are you tracking time?
 

The full thing (for me) might be, "Goal and approach, followed by dice rolls only in the case of uncertain outcomes AND meaningful consequences, of which the player should be aware before committing to a roll."

And then the question becomes: because dice rolling with risk/reward is fun, how can we take some of the cases where the consequences aren't obvious and create fun challenges?

My first comment is "Why are you stuck on meaningful consequences of failure?" as the sole means of achieving the goal of fun meaningful consequences and fun challenges?

Imagine we reverse the argument and insisted that the only valid challenges were those with meaningful consequences of success. That is to say, if we go back to your original post and look at questions like: "One question that might arise is whether failing a stealth check, and thus failing to hide, really counts as a consequence. Isn't that the same outcome as not rolling at all?", and looked at those questions from this new perspective they are pretty baffling. If we only look at meaningful consequence of success, the worry about stealth checks goes away, because it's obvious that success on a stealth check involves a meaningful consequence of success - you get to stab the sleeping dragon. Thus, while failure on the success check is the same as not trying to be stealthy, success on the stealth check is definitely not the same as not trying to be stealthy.

This hypothetical poster insisting that we always need a meaningful consequence of success before the challenge is of the right sort, and not examining meaningful consequences of failure, probably would have asked a completely different sort of puzzle and assigned it medium difficulty.

To wit something like, "Suppose a character is shoved toward a precipice and must now make some sort of check to avoid going off. It's not at all obvious that there is a meaningful consequence of success. After all, succeeding in this case just maintains the status quo as if the challenge had never happened. Perhaps the person should gain some sort of advantage for having succeeded, but it's not obvious what that advantage should be?"

From your perspective on focusing on the meaningful consequences of failure, that example probably seems pretty silly. The PC has avoided going off a precipice. There was risk involved. There were meaningful consequences of failure.

But if rolls with no meaningful consequence of success are good and valid, why aren't rolls with no meaningful consequence of failure good and valid provided that there is some meaningful consequence of success? Why aren't the two symmetrical?

Back in the real world, you can probably think of many cases of difficulties where failure had no meaningful consequences, difficulties where success meant maintaining the status quo but failure was avoided, difficulties were failure meant maintaining the status quo but success was avoided, and difficulties where success or failure meant the status quo was changing either way.

I think the answer to your question remains, there is no answer to your question in the general case and in the way you've phrased it, particularly if you are going to preemptively restrict the sort of answers you get to the sort that you assume will solve the problem. Imposing worse than do nothing consequences on every situation is going to either break verisimilitude, or be antagonistic in practice, or be railroading in practice. Retroactively trying to transform the scenario into one where whatever the PC's propose it has a worse than do nothing consequence isn't a solution to every problem, and may indeed make things worse. What I would encourage you do to is try to proactively set up situations so that there is some sort of fun consequences in playing out the scenario, and when you find yourself outside of that, to move through it as quickly as won't feel like a choo-choo train to get to the "good parts".
 

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