D&D General Do armor proficiencies make sense?

[CubicsRube]

Shadow of the Demon Lord, a system I crap on about all the time, uses strength requirements for armor instead of proficiency.

I think it works really well. If you want heavy armor you have to seriously invest in strength in that system at the expense of other things

 

[Garthanos]

Shadow of the Demon Lord, a system I crap on about all the time, uses strength requirements for armor instead of proficiency.

I think it works really well. If you want heavy armor you have to seriously invest in strength in that system at the expense of other things

4e requires a big feet chain even starting at fighter to learn to be nimble in Plate it takes 3 or 4 or feats 5 for a Warlord - the character design cost is heavy.

 

[DND_Reborn]

A Wizards robes might allow them
to use Intelligence instead of Dex for defense

What do you think of the idea of making Mage Armor scale? I was thinking Mage Armor could give an AC equal to 10 + proficiency bonus + Dexterity modifier. It would make it much more useful in later tiers IMO.

 

[Greenfield]

I own a chain shirt IRL. Like I said earlier, I teach a class in how to make the stuff, and having a shirt for people to try on is a draw for the class.

I'd call it Light armor. It doesn't impede ground speed at all (i.e. no Movement penalty). The extra 25 pounds on the upper body might make you a touch top heavy, but other than that it's no an impediment to Dex either. (Naturally I have a 22 IRL, so I know all about that... )

In reality, you could forget you were wearing it within 15 minutes. Like I said, 25 lbs, but it feels like 5 once it's on, because the weight distributes so well. And that's 3/4 hardened spring stainless, not the aluminum stuff you see at costume shops.

Now at the end of the day, just walking around in it you'll feel it in your legs. No matter how well it distributes, the weight is still there, so if I were writing the rules I'd apply Armor Check Penalties (a 3.* reference) to any fatigue or exhaustion checks.

As far as Int to Dex: I appreciate the value of a good combat strategy, noting an opponent's style based on how they move and what they favor. That also factors in to your offense as well. Still, I'd be more inclined to tie that in to some sort of skill rather than raw Intelligence.

Or we could call it "leveling up", and see the defense gain not as an AC boost, but as more hit points (presuming that you see hit points as the ability to roll with a punch and minimize damage.) That would also account for the gain in offense.

As far as Dex is concerned, remember that the game simplifies such things. In real life there's manual dexterity, hand-eye coordination and "nimble". I used to be a professional magician and my manual dexterity is ridiculous. Not kidding. At the same time I can't hit a trashcan with a thrown piece of paper, or a hamper with a dirty sock. My hand-eye coordination sucks. I'm also a bit overweight and I have a bad leg, so when it comes to "nimble" I'm definatly not. We could probably subdivide the other stats as well, but we'd be adding complexity to the game, and I don't think the cost/benifit balance is there. We account for things like my manual skill with, well, skill. Specifically Sleight of Hand.

Odd historical note: One of the first iron usng cultures in Europe, and thus one of the first with iron weapons and armor were the Gaels, whome we tend to think of as the Irish and Scots. They discovered and started to work Iron starting in about 385 BC, in an area north of the Black Sea, known as the Blue Mountains. There's a National Geographic article titled "The First Europeans" that charts their travels, and how they ended up on the opposite side of Europe. Good read if you can find it.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I own a chain shirt IRL. Like I said earlier, I teach a class in how to make the stuff, and having a shirt for people to try on is a draw for the class.

Out of curiosity, is it a riveted shirt akin to true chain mail? Do

I'd call it Light armor. It doesn't impede ground speed at all (i.e. no Movement penalty). The extra 25 pounds on the upper body might make you a touch top heavy, but other than that it's no an impediment to Dex either. (Naturally I have a 22 IRL, so I know all about that... )

In reality, you could forget you were wearing it within 15 minutes. Like I said, 25 lbs, but it feels like 5 once it's on, because the weight distributes so well. And that's 3/4 hardened spring stainless, not the aluminum stuff you see at costume shops.

Now at the end of the day, just walking around in it you'll feel it in your legs. No matter how well it distributes, the weight is still there, so if I were writing the rules I'd apply Armor Check Penalties (a 3.* reference) to any fatigue or exhaustion checks.

I suppose that is why the devs decided to have medium armors, and not just light/heavy. I do like the idea that armors with stealth disadvantage (at least in the mediums and heavies) would apply to fatigue/ exhaustion in some manner.

As far as Int to Dex: I appreciate the value of a good combat strategy, noting an opponent's style based on how they move and what they favor. That also factors in to your offense as well. Still, I'd be more inclined to tie that in to some sort of skill rather than raw Intelligence.

Or we could call it "leveling up", and see the defense gain not as an AC boost, but as more hit points (presuming that you see hit points as the ability to roll with a punch and minimize damage.) That would also account for the gain in offense.

We added a new Fighting Style: Tactical, which allows the fighter to add their INT modifier to either attack rolls or damage rolls each round (you choose at the start of your turn and ends at the start of your next turn).

As far as Dex is concerned, remember that the game simplifies such things. In real life there's manual dexterity, hand-eye coordination and "nimble". I used to be a professional magician and my manual dexterity is ridiculous. Not kidding. At the same time I can't hit a trashcan with a thrown piece of paper, or a hamper with a dirty sock. My hand-eye coordination sucks. I'm also a bit overweight and I have a bad leg, so when it comes to "nimble" I'm definatly not. We could probably subdivide the other stats as well, but we'd be adding complexity to the game, and I don't think the cost/benifit balance is there. We account for things like my manual skill with, well, skill. Specifically Sleight of Hand.

Yeah, it is a lot for some players to wrap their heads around when you consider all the aspects that comprise DEX in the game. It really is the most complex ability score in that manner. Other threads have discussed combining STR/CON into a super-stat STR. DEX could have been divided into two major components from the beginning, but then people would probably just want to recombine them as well. The struggle for simplicity vs. realism continues...

Anyway, for a character with max DEX, they are basically good at it all, maybe even great at most of it?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

What do you think of the idea of making Mage Armor scale? I was thinking Mage Armor could give an AC equal to 10 + proficiency bonus + Dexterity modifier. It would make it much more useful in later tiers IMO.

A little too useful. AC keeps its value all the way up in general so scaling is not required.
I do not think that a first level spell granting better potential protection than plate at the high tiers would help with class balance either.

 

[DND_Reborn]

A little too useful. AC keeps its value all the way up in general so scaling is not required.
I do not think that a first level spell granting better potential protection than plate at the high tiers would help with class balance either.

Maybe. I am personally ok with it. At best (if you had max DEX 20), it would give you an AC 21, only one better than Plate/Shield. By the time you had max DEX and were in Tier 4 for proficiency +6, the other character with plate/shield would likely have a better AC as well (depending on your style of game).

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Maybe. I am personally ok with it. At best (if you had max DEX 20), it would give you an AC 21, only one better than Plate/Shield. By the time you had max DEX and were in Tier 4 for proficiency +6, the other character with plate/shield would likely have a better AC as well (depending on your style of game).

Mage armour is castable on other people, doesn't require the use of one of your hands, has no strength requirement, and no stealth disadvantage.
None of those benefits (OK apart from maybe the stealth ) is a minor benefit.
Even though it potentially grants protection as good as a tanked-out fighter in plate and shield, it does not require the sacrifices in damage, ability scores etc that the fighter needs to make to reach there.

And note: that is about the tankiest potential AC that a class can get. - I don't see wizards being able to reach that as being required in terms or class concept or class balance.

 

[Garthanos]

What do you think of the idea of making Mage Armor scale? I was thinking Mage Armor could give an AC equal to 10 + proficiency bonus + Dexterity modifier. It would make it much more useful in later tiers IMO.

I think that having any defending yourself / armor use function like a skill might be interesting

 

[DND_Reborn]

Mage armour is castable on other people, doesn't require the use of one of your hands, has no strength requirement, and no stealth disadvantage.
None of those benefits (OK apart from maybe the stealth ) is a minor benefit.
Even though it potentially grants protection as good as a tanked-out fighter in plate and shield, it does not require the sacrifices in damage, ability scores etc that the fighter needs to make to reach there.

And note: that is about the tankiest potential AC that a class can get. - I don't see wizards being able to reach that as being required in terms or class concept or class balance.

Other classes often wear armor on their own. If you want to expend a spell slot for them, I don't see the harm.
It can be dispelled. As a first level spell, that is pretty easy... in fact, automatic.
Most characters don't need both hands all the time. The biggest possibly benefited would be the Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight, both of whom could dual wield. Even then, you are only potentially boosting the AC by 3 over RAW, hardly game-breaking or anything.
Most armors don't have a strength requirement.

If you don't like it, don't worry about it, you don't have to use it.

At the point we're talking about, ACs are typically well into the 20's via other means. Unless you are in a game with no magical items (VERY rare IME), an AC 21 is hardly awesome.

I mean, you can have a fighter with AC 21 as soon as you can afford the plate. The fighter is not really sacrificing much, if anything, to get there, either. Need a STR 15, probably much higher anyway. Sacrificing damage? Not much with dueling for the sword and board compared to TWF and GWM, especially for battlemaster, it isn't much for the AC you would get instead.