D&D General Do armor proficiencies make sense?

[CubicsRube]

Shadow of the Demon Lord, a system I crap on about all the time, uses strength requirements for armor instead of proficiency.

I think it works really well. If you want heavy armor you have to seriously invest in strength in that system at the expense of other things

 

[Garthanos]

Shadow of the Demon Lord, a system I crap on about all the time, uses strength requirements for armor instead of proficiency.

I think it works really well. If you want heavy armor you have to seriously invest in strength in that system at the expense of other things

4e requires a big feet chain even starting at fighter to learn to be nimble in Plate it takes 3 or 4 or feats 5 for a Warlord - the character design cost is heavy.

 

[DND_Reborn]

A Wizards robes might allow them
to use Intelligence instead of Dex for defense

What do you think of the idea of making Mage Armor scale? I was thinking Mage Armor could give an AC equal to 10 + proficiency bonus + Dexterity modifier. It would make it much more useful in later tiers IMO.

 

[Greenfield]

I own a chain shirt IRL. Like I said earlier, I teach a class in how to make the stuff, and having a shirt for people to try on is a draw for the class.

I'd call it Light armor. It doesn't impede ground speed at all (i.e. no Movement penalty). The extra 25 pounds on the upper body might make you a touch top heavy, but other than that it's no an impediment to Dex either. (Naturally I have a 22 IRL, so I know all about that... )

In reality, you could forget you were wearing it within 15 minutes. Like I said, 25 lbs, but it feels like 5 once it's on, because the weight distributes so well. And that's 3/4 hardened spring stainless, not the aluminum stuff you see at costume shops.

Now at the end of the day, just walking around in it you'll feel it in your legs. No matter how well it distributes, the weight is still there, so if I were writing the rules I'd apply Armor Check Penalties (a 3.* reference) to any fatigue or exhaustion checks.

As far as Int to Dex: I appreciate the value of a good combat strategy, noting an opponent's style based on how they move and what they favor. That also factors in to your offense as well. Still, I'd be more inclined to tie that in to some sort of skill rather than raw Intelligence.

Or we could call it "leveling up", and see the defense gain not as an AC boost, but as more hit points (presuming that you see hit points as the ability to roll with a punch and minimize damage.) That would also account for the gain in offense.

As far as Dex is concerned, remember that the game simplifies such things. In real life there's manual dexterity, hand-eye coordination and "nimble". I used to be a professional magician and my manual dexterity is ridiculous. Not kidding. At the same time I can't hit a trashcan with a thrown piece of paper, or a hamper with a dirty sock. My hand-eye coordination sucks. I'm also a bit overweight and I have a bad leg, so when it comes to "nimble" I'm definatly not. We could probably subdivide the other stats as well, but we'd be adding complexity to the game, and I don't think the cost/benifit balance is there. We account for things like my manual skill with, well, skill. Specifically Sleight of Hand.

Odd historical note: One of the first iron usng cultures in Europe, and thus one of the first with iron weapons and armor were the Gaels, whome we tend to think of as the Irish and Scots. They discovered and started to work Iron starting in about 385 BC, in an area north of the Black Sea, known as the Blue Mountains. There's a National Geographic article titled "The First Europeans" that charts their travels, and how they ended up on the opposite side of Europe. Good read if you can find it.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I own a chain shirt IRL. Like I said earlier, I teach a class in how to make the stuff, and having a shirt for people to try on is a draw for the class.

Out of curiosity, is it a riveted shirt akin to true chain mail? Do

I'd call it Light armor. It doesn't impede ground speed at all (i.e. no Movement penalty). The extra 25 pounds on the upper body might make you a touch top heavy, but other than that it's no an impediment to Dex either. (Naturally I have a 22 IRL, so I know all about that... )

In reality, you could forget you were wearing it within 15 minutes. Like I said, 25 lbs, but it feels like 5 once it's on, because the weight distributes so well. And that's 3/4 hardened spring stainless, not the aluminum stuff you see at costume shops.

Now at the end of the day, just walking around in it you'll feel it in your legs. No matter how well it distributes, the weight is still there, so if I were writing the rules I'd apply Armor Check Penalties (a 3.* reference) to any fatigue or exhaustion checks.

I suppose that is why the devs decided to have medium armors, and not just light/heavy. I do like the idea that armors with stealth disadvantage (at least in the mediums and heavies) would apply to fatigue/ exhaustion in some manner.

As far as Int to Dex: I appreciate the value of a good combat strategy, noting an opponent's style based on how they move and what they favor. That also factors in to your offense as well. Still, I'd be more inclined to tie that in to some sort of skill rather than raw Intelligence.

Or we could call it "leveling up", and see the defense gain not as an AC boost, but as more hit points (presuming that you see hit points as the ability to roll with a punch and minimize damage.) That would also account for the gain in offense.

We added a new Fighting Style: Tactical, which allows the fighter to add their INT modifier to either attack rolls or damage rolls each round (you choose at the start of your turn and ends at the start of your next turn).

As far as Dex is concerned, remember that the game simplifies such things. In real life there's manual dexterity, hand-eye coordination and "nimble". I used to be a professional magician and my manual dexterity is ridiculous. Not kidding. At the same time I can't hit a trashcan with a thrown piece of paper, or a hamper with a dirty sock. My hand-eye coordination sucks. I'm also a bit overweight and I have a bad leg, so when it comes to "nimble" I'm definatly not. We could probably subdivide the other stats as well, but we'd be adding complexity to the game, and I don't think the cost/benifit balance is there. We account for things like my manual skill with, well, skill. Specifically Sleight of Hand.

Yeah, it is a lot for some players to wrap their heads around when you consider all the aspects that comprise DEX in the game. It really is the most complex ability score in that manner. Other threads have discussed combining STR/CON into a super-stat STR. DEX could have been divided into two major components from the beginning, but then people would probably just want to recombine them as well. The struggle for simplicity vs. realism continues...

Anyway, for a character with max DEX, they are basically good at it all, maybe even great at most of it?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

What do you think of the idea of making Mage Armor scale? I was thinking Mage Armor could give an AC equal to 10 + proficiency bonus + Dexterity modifier. It would make it much more useful in later tiers IMO.

A little too useful. AC keeps its value all the way up in general so scaling is not required.
I do not think that a first level spell granting better potential protection than plate at the high tiers would help with class balance either.

 

[DND_Reborn]

A little too useful. AC keeps its value all the way up in general so scaling is not required.
I do not think that a first level spell granting better potential protection than plate at the high tiers would help with class balance either.

Maybe. I am personally ok with it. At best (if you had max DEX 20), it would give you an AC 21, only one better than Plate/Shield. By the time you had max DEX and were in Tier 4 for proficiency +6, the other character with plate/shield would likely have a better AC as well (depending on your style of game).

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Maybe. I am personally ok with it. At best (if you had max DEX 20), it would give you an AC 21, only one better than Plate/Shield. By the time you had max DEX and were in Tier 4 for proficiency +6, the other character with plate/shield would likely have a better AC as well (depending on your style of game).

Mage armour is castable on other people, doesn't require the use of one of your hands, has no strength requirement, and no stealth disadvantage.
None of those benefits (OK apart from maybe the stealth ) is a minor benefit.
Even though it potentially grants protection as good as a tanked-out fighter in plate and shield, it does not require the sacrifices in damage, ability scores etc that the fighter needs to make to reach there.

And note: that is about the tankiest potential AC that a class can get. - I don't see wizards being able to reach that as being required in terms or class concept or class balance.

 

[Garthanos]

What do you think of the idea of making Mage Armor scale? I was thinking Mage Armor could give an AC equal to 10 + proficiency bonus + Dexterity modifier. It would make it much more useful in later tiers IMO.

I think that having any defending yourself / armor use function like a skill might be interesting

 

[DND_Reborn]

Mage armour is castable on other people, doesn't require the use of one of your hands, has no strength requirement, and no stealth disadvantage.
None of those benefits (OK apart from maybe the stealth ) is a minor benefit.
Even though it potentially grants protection as good as a tanked-out fighter in plate and shield, it does not require the sacrifices in damage, ability scores etc that the fighter needs to make to reach there.

And note: that is about the tankiest potential AC that a class can get. - I don't see wizards being able to reach that as being required in terms or class concept or class balance.

Other classes often wear armor on their own. If you want to expend a spell slot for them, I don't see the harm.
It can be dispelled. As a first level spell, that is pretty easy... in fact, automatic.
Most characters don't need both hands all the time. The biggest possibly benefited would be the Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight, both of whom could dual wield. Even then, you are only potentially boosting the AC by 3 over RAW, hardly game-breaking or anything.
Most armors don't have a strength requirement.

If you don't like it, don't worry about it, you don't have to use it.

At the point we're talking about, ACs are typically well into the 20's via other means. Unless you are in a game with no magical items (VERY rare IME), an AC 21 is hardly awesome.

I mean, you can have a fighter with AC 21 as soon as you can afford the plate. The fighter is not really sacrificing much, if anything, to get there, either. Need a STR 15, probably much higher anyway. Sacrificing damage? Not much with dueling for the sword and board compared to TWF and GWM, especially for battlemaster, it isn't much for the AC you would get instead.

 

[Garthanos]

I might get behind a feat allowing this, but I hate, hate, hate ways to swap (really concentrate) stat benefits that aren't expensive. I support more MAD, not less. Getting abilities like that for free or part of a class benefit just feed the optimization/power gamers to the cost of generalists and building for breadth.

Interestingly I agree about mad and yet being of a class is an opportunity cost too... say for instance I have an intelligent fighter / rogue (warlord) with history skills - I don't really want to multi-class wizard. In other words if you are supporting mad... you want everyone to get benefit out of it being of a class is also a pay wall.

 

[billd91]

Interestingly I agree about mad and yet being of a class is an opportunity cost too... say for instance I have an intelligent fighter / rogue (warlord) with history skills - I don't really want to multi-class wizard. In other words if you are supporting mad... you want everyone to get benefit out of it being of a class is also a pay wall.

It might be a high cost for a warlord who wants to go without armor to multiclass as wizard. Problem is, for the player who wants to play a wizard - it's no cost at all. It's even a considerable benefit. That's why making it a class benefit is a bad option, particularly if it allows a player to dump another stat in favor of the one they're already concentrating on.

 

[Garthanos]

It might be a high cost for a warlord who wants to go without armor to multiclass as wizard. Problem is, for the player who wants to play a wizard - it's no cost at all.

Given how situational THAT cost is .. you are right. I suppose dropping this out into a separate character design resource makes sense.

I do think there is a couple of paradigms or tropes at play. Some play against our preference for characters with general attributes (ie lots of attributes being valuable and heros enhancing them all for there varied benefits).

• "Winners play to their strengths"
• "There is always more than one way of accomplishing a goal"
• "Heros are winners"
• "Heros are versatile".
• "Game mechanics are vague" - most of my hit points are my luck running out and his is divine favor and hers magical shielding (why is this bound to Con?)

 

[DND_Reborn]

• "Game mechanics are vague" - most of my hit points are my luck running out and his is divine favor and hers magical shielding (why is this bound to Con?)

I suppose the CON is your energy running out as you constantly move to fight, dodge, etc., which is why you recover it with a short or long rest. I am not certain how resting helps you recover your luck, or divine favor, or magical shielding (spells excepted, of course...).

 

[aco175]

I allow an armored cloak for +1AC that I tend to give to mages and other NPCs. Other travelers may have some padded armor while on the road and riding wagons and such. I tend to not specify what it actually is and the players tend to imagine something more like hides to the monsters and more formal padding to humans traveling, even if both only grant a +1.

Nice thing about 5e is that I do not need to justify much on the DM side for monster stats. I can just say that the monster has a 17 AC. If the players ask what they are wearing I can say something like, partial armor and hides.

I can see a better list for PCs, but nothing is needed for monsters.

 

[Garthanos]

I suppose the CON is your energy running out as you constantly move to fight, dodge, etc., which is why you recover it with a short or long rest. I am not certain how resting helps you recover your luck, or divine favor, or magical shielding (spells excepted, of course...).

Yes the fatigue from skilled movement is certainly 1 of the options and an easily pictured one There was a background in 4e with an effect it allowed your base hit points to be derived from a different attribute the Priest might have his based on Wisdom (his connection with divine favor). In 5e it would be like saying your hit points from level 1 to level 4 gained a bonus from your best attribute instead of Con.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Yes the fatigue from skilled movement is certainly 1 of the options and an easily pictured one There was a background in 4e with an effect it allowed your base hit points to be derived from a different attribute the Priest might have his based on Wisdom (his connection with divine favor). In 5e it would be like saying your hit points from level 1 to level 4 gained a bonus from your best attribute instead of Con.

That gives me an interesting idea! What if your hit point bonus comes from one of your ability scores, based on your saving throws for your class and you choose which one.

So, a cleric with saves in Wisdom and Charisma (why Charisma, I have NO idea) would base their bonus hp on one of those scores. With a WIS 16, they could have +3 (from divine favor, insight into foes in battle, etc.).

I don't know, I doubt I would use it, but it is a different idea...

 

[Garthanos]

That gives me an interesting idea! What if your hit point bonus comes from one of your ability scores, based on your saving throws for your class and you choose which one.

One still wants con to have some impact though unless we are collapsing it into strength. The idea of the first 4 levels only sort of buffers your beginning hero a bit more. Additionally in 4e since healing surges were impacted by CON ... and a healing surge could be used to get some skill auto successes there were some value both in recovery even if you made your base hp on say Charisma (god gift). Making the bonus entirely from the Priests wisdom I suppose still leaves potentially a very important save in the dust so maybe not a problem.

 

[Garthanos]

4e requires a big feet chain even starting at fighter to learn to be nimble in Plate it takes 3 or 4 or feats 5 for a Warlord - the character design cost is heavy.

This by the way is part of where I am coming from... lots of design resources to get to Lancelot as he moved in the movie Excalibur or even like some joe demoing armor use on Youtube

 

[Hriston]

Its almost like saying you have to learn how to wear clothes.

Casting penalties do seem to serve certain flavors of fantasy magic (like fae related
magic not working well if you are carrying a significant amount of iron metal armor) but by far not all.

Stealth penalties are usually over blown

And plate armor is in reality less of a movement hindrance than some lighter
armor and easier to wear by someone with lower stamina your mount carries
the weight while traveling so its even better while exploring.

We might include other ways of serving the tropes A barbarians Woad might
provide extra protection and intimidation benefits. A Wizards robes might allow them
to use Intelligence instead of Dex for defense

In 4e even if a fighter could use scale armor there were class features that encouraged using chain armor
if you wanted to shift your character towards a more striker functionality.

ch

It’s a menu of options that you can have your character wear without incurring a penalty for non proficiency. It makes sense to me that a person could have learned to use a type of armor, but not every type of armor, while another person might not have any training with armor. I’m not sure why this would be considered nonsensical.