D&D 5E 5e Sorcerer versus Wizard, which is better?

[DM-Rocco]

It's not about what I like, it's about what I loathe. The loremaster is the having your cake and eat it too of the arcane casters. The loremaster takes quite powerful metamagic -a lot of it on par if not outright better than the sorcerer- and plugs it onto the wizard chassis, which is stronger than the sorcerer's. Spells known, sky is the limit. Spell variety, lots of exclusive spells. Spell slots, in abundance. Ritual casting, the second best in the game.

This one subclass erodes completely the sorcerer niche. A lore master is going to be way way better than a same level sorcerer, perhaps even a sorcerer of three or four levels higher. And since you are not picky like me, and have been playing your current sorcerer/warlock as wizard lite, there seems to be nothing unique the sorcerer class can offer to you. The lore master is broken; I don't think most DMs would allow it, but since yours seems to allow it, don't let the chance go away. He or she will hate you for it, but that is a once in a lifetime chance.

I understand but don't you think a Diviner with the luck feat is just as broken?

 

[DM-Rocco]

Sorcerers know 11 spells at level 10. Wizards know 24 at level 10.
Sorcerers can use any of those 11. Wizards prepare 15 (as well as use any of the others as rituals)

Those are significant differences.

I think he was asking where do you go all the wizard spells. Obviously you can get drops from scrolls as treasure, but if you battle another wizard, boom, you get their spell book and all the spells they can cast are now yours. You can also purchase scrolls in addition to the two a level you can learn.

 

[DM-Rocco]

I personally think that prepared casters should've had "half level + casting mod" spells prepped per day, and spontaneous ones all have at least their level number of spells known for its level (at the very least, much more than what they know as of now)...

I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you trying to say a wizard should be able to have less spells prepared each day and a sorcerer should have more? There would be no reason to take a wizard than, ever.

 

[DND_Reborn]

You took the effort to do the math and you have a very good point. Those extra tools may be handy. IME the wizard has a few go to spells and When those don’t work they turn to their others. Also the Wizard’s archetype incentivizes the use of spells from one school. Which may be why they seem set in their ways.

Yeah, my current character is a Wizard (amongst other things LOL), and her versatility/ utility lies mostly in rituals. She has also made a very great effort to expand her spellbook whenever possible. However, I would say 90% of the time she has the same spells prepared; with three basic options depending on what I think she will encounter during the game day: social, exploration, or combat.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I understand but don't you think a Diviner with the luck feat is just as broken?

The Loremaster is broken, like, disgustingly so. Its the only archetype I've seen in play where I had to ask the player to switch for something else because it quickly became obnoxious. It does not require a lot of tactical skill to see that switching saves to ''Int'' or switch elemental damage to lightning.

The diviner with lucky is not broken, but its annoying as hell for the Dm and found the hard way that this is the kind of build that people who takes pleasure in adversarial play use to take the fun out of the Dm prep. If played well its a nice archetype with a fitting feat tho. Like everything, its a matter pacing and remembering that everyone at the table is there to have fun. To cite Marie Kondo: ''if your build does not spark joy in the other people at the table, you can throw them out.''

 

[Blue]

Your better off going Shadow Magic Sorcerer, it's the most powerful subclass in the game IMHO. The Hound of Ill Omen is awesome, it's a mix of a divination effect, a summoned creature and Heighten Spell on repeat. Shadow Form is one of the most powerful defensive buffs in the game and it has some utility too. It's Teleporting is twice the range of the Way of Shadows Monk. It's gets a qausi version of Devils sight and Darkvision and the Darkness Spell known for free. It's also hard to kill. This is in addition to normal Sorcerer stuff. Still it's the one Sorcerer subclass where you might use more of your Sorcery points on Class features then Spells or Metamagic, it's that good.

I get a different feel, but I haven't actually seen one played.

"Devil's Sight"-like - nice if you focus on attack spells instead of saving spells. Good on defense. May need to work around party as always.

Hound of Ill Omen gives you a single CR 1 creature that doesn't scale except for a handful of temp HPs, and you don't get it until 6th. It's not bad when you get it, but as you level it becomes fairly inconsequential. At higher levels it can easily be killed in AoEs - and not just foes but also from your party since it follows programmed movement that will put it among foes.

Shadow Walk is just nice, I'm with you. Wish it came sooner than 14th, but it's really nice.

Umbral Form comes at 18th level. It gives movement through objects and creatrures whcih is nice, and the defenses of a 3rd level Bear Barbarian - but with more types not resisted, and less HPs per level.

One comment on "This is in addition to normal Sorcerer stuff" - some of the other sorcerer subclasses more directly add to (or multiply) your casting. This offers mostly side benefits (except for the Hound's disadvantage on saves), and using the same resoure currency that is used to power the "normal sorcerer stuff".

 

[gyor]

I get a different feel, but I haven't actually seen one played.

"Devil's Sight"-like - nice if you focus on attack spells instead of saving spells. Good on defense. May need to work around party as always.

Hound of Ill Omen gives you a single CR 1 creature that doesn't scale except for a handful of temp HPs, and you don't get it until 6th. It's not bad when you get it, but as you level it becomes fairly inconsequential. At higher levels it can easily be killed in AoEs - and not just foes but also from your party since it follows programmed movement that will put it among foes.

Shadow Walk is just nice, I'm with you. Wish it came sooner than 14th, but it's really nice.

Umbral Form comes at 18th level. It gives movement through objects and creatrures whcih is nice, and the defenses of a 3rd level Bear Barbarian - but with more types not resisted, and less HPs per level.

One comment on "This is in addition to normal Sorcerer stuff" - some of the other sorcerer subclasses more directly add to (or multiply) your casting. This offers mostly side benefits (except for the Hound's disadvantage on saves), and using the same resoure currency that is used to power the "normal sorcerer stuff".

You will always at least get one spell off with Hound of Ill Omen, because the hound is a bonus action and is not a spell, so you can cast a spell using you action. Example, summon the hound with your bonus action, then cast dominate person/beast/monster on the same target, or a twinned version of the spell.

Also if your small, mount the hound, if you have the mounted feat it will help keep it alive.

The best use at higher levels of the Darkness spell is stealth and teleporting all around the space, not combat. Imagine dropping darkness into a room, having the Sorcerer teleport in to various spots stealing stuff, then teleporting out. Or teleporting, cause disarray with minor illusion sounds that lead enemies were the Sorcerer wants them, then teleport out and drop the darknese.

 

[5ekyu]

I understand but don't you think a Diviner with the luck feat is just as broken?

On the diviner lucky, once you start comparing class plus feat to class without feat to get to "just as" you are IMO giving up the ghost.

 

[gyor]

The Loremaster is broken, like, disgustingly so. Its the only archetype I've seen in play where I had to ask the player to switch for something else because it quickly became obnoxious. It does not require a lot of tactical skill to see that switching saves to ''Int'' or switch elemental damage to lightning.

The diviner with lucky is not broken, but its annoying as hell for the Dm and found the hard way that this is the kind of build that people who takes pleasure in adversarial play use to take the fun out of the Dm prep. If played well its a nice archetype with a fitting feat tho. Like everything, its a matter pacing and remembering that everyone at the table is there to have fun. To cite Marie Kondo: ''if your build does not spark joy in the other people at the table, you can throw them out.''

I'd flip the tables and build an NPC Diviner to fight the PCs.

 

[5ekyu]

Where do wizard players pick up all these spells?

Most wizard players I see pick up the 2 freebies per level.

More experienced players seem to go out if their way to get more.

It's like rituals. There seems to be an attitude of you get them automatically.

The key is with 6 and then 2 per level, even if we dont find any ever the 6 plus 2 per gives us plenty and the ability to have almost if not every spell know prepared or ready if we pick rituals.

Thays the huge difference between Ritual Caster feat and Wizard Rituals. The Wizard can pick rituals at any/every level and not have to,prepare them.

The only rituals the sorc with feat get are its first two.

After that both can gain from scrolls, spellbooks taken from fallen or bought (or leased) and the strength of that will vary by game.

But one xead wizard npc spellbook is likely a majpr find.