What is the essence of D&D

[Zardnaar]

You can...leave...a diving bell, and go back into it. People can hold their breath a long time in dnd. It seems to assume really healthy lungs and practice in the skill of holding one's breath. (I'd have tied it to the Athletics skill, myself)

You don't need never-ending continuous breathing to explore underwater. You just need a place to breath within range, and a decent handle on how long you can hold your breath, and how fast you can swim.

People explored underwater before scuba gear.

I'll never understand folks who need to restrict mundanes on the most strict possible terms, even erring on the side of going beyond how restrictive real life is. Just let them be cool, guys. It's fine.

Not long term, I think Pearl divers in shallow areas could last around 8 minutes with a lifetime of training.

 

[TheSword]

... Gelfling.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Maybe they're magic diving bells...

Maybe, but I'm perfectly happy with them just being diving bells and not being picky about the scientific realism of diving in a fantasy world.

But if you got a DM or group who just can't even with things that defy whatever perception they have (right or wrong or in between) of how a thing works IRL, it could just be made of a special metal that diffuses the effect of rapidly changing pressure, with naturally cultivated underground fungus lining the inside that scrubs your exhaled breath to keep the air inside clean and usable. It's fantasy, without being magical in any way that matters or could be dispelled with dispel magic.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Both magic items and casters figure into the Primacy of Magic - or Magic Dependency, if you prefer. They figure a little differently in different still-D&D editions. Magic items are more a build resource in 3e than in any other really-D&D game (unless you count PF1 as separate from 3e), for instance, but they're still /very/ important, and, yes, can be especially so when there's no casters to provide magic. By the same token, casters are very important, but in a setting where magic items are extremely rare, even for PCs, or even non-existent, they're that much /more/ important.

I have a different reaction to "Wizards are better than Fighters" and "The game is just too dependent on magic."

To the former I simply disagree.

To the latter, it's a valid criticism/complaint/observation, but I also don't have much sympathy for it. Yes, the "Essence of D&D" is that there's magic. There are people who cast spells. There are magical items. There are monsters that can only exist because of magic. There are magical sigils and traps and doors and portals and pools and everything else.

But just as I cannot imagine D&D without magic, I also cannot imagine it without swords and shields and bows and arrows. (That said, I can quite happily imagine it...and sometimes wistfully do...without rapiers and hand crossbows.)

Ideally, I'd prefer "balanced with" to "as effective as" - I'd expect the effectiveness of a wizard & fighter to be very different in nature. But, yes, ideally class balance should not be contingent upon one class having access to found items. For instance, the effectiveness of a Ranger vs Warlock or Artificer vs Warlord or Fighter vs Paladin, assuming corresponding 4e-style formal Roles, should be quite comparable, whether both had items or neither did.

I think that is a fine goal, and I agree it's not ideal that, at high level, a Fighter without any magic items is at a bigger relative disadvantage compared to a Wizard without any magic items, but at the same time I don't know of any solutions that I like. Giving the Fighter comic book superhero abilities is not, to me, a satisfying solution.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Maybe, but I'm perfectly happy with them just being diving bells and not being picky about the scientific realism of diving in a fantasy world.

But if you got a DM or group who just can't even with things that defy whatever perception they have (right or wrong or in between) of how a thing works IRL, it could just be made of a special metal that diffuses the effect of rapidly changing pressure, with naturally cultivated underground fungus lining the inside that scrubs your exhaled breath to keep the air inside clean and usable. It's fantasy, without being magical in any way that matters or could be dispelled with dispel magic.

I was being silly.

I'm with you. I don't need to explain the physics (or magic) of the diving bells. They work, 'kay?

(Well, maybe they work. Mwuhahahahahaha....)

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Not long term, I think Pearl divers in shallow areas could last around 8 minutes with a lifetime of training.

Ugh. Again (for the millionth time) I do not care at all about nitpicking particulars. I literally could not care less about it. I care the minimal possible amount. To care less, I'd have to not know that nitpicking particulars exists.

Why? Because it doesn't ever matter, and doesn't ever usefully add to a discussion.

Here's a nit pick that matters about as much as yours, which is to say it doesn't. Coastal nomads that can hold their breath that long have actual hereditary adaptations that make them better at holding their breath for longer than others can, and their "training" is literally just diving on a daily basis their entire lives, which is part of why some of them still die from overestimating their abilities.

Is that information additive to the discussion, somehow? I can't think of any way that it is, myself.

Back to the point, even 8 minutes is a pretty damn long time, and allows for quite a lot of exploration when you don't have to return to the surface to get your breath and let your lungs (and spleen, of all things) rest. But more importantly (as in, important, where the preceeding information isn't), DnD allows for high con PCs to hold their breath for plenty long to explore in multiple back and forth trips without magic.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Wait oh my god I'm literally cackling over here. Are you suggesting that a significant number of subscribers, which is people paying a monthly fee for a service were actually just people who forgot for multiple years that they were paying for it? Seriously!?

Or kept forgetting to cancel it. Or found canceling too inconvenient.

Prettymuch the whole point of a subscription model.
IM(Cynical)O.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I was being silly.

I'm with you. I don't need to explain the physics (or magic) of the diving bells. They work, 'kay?

(Well, maybe they work. Mwuhahahahahaha....)

Heh. Sorry if I was overly assertive in my reply. The whole "all things mundane must be very strictly kept in line with the DM's perception of how it really works in the really real world" mentality is one of my biggest pet peeves in TTRPGs. Probably the least important thing I'd leave a table over.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Or kept forgetting to cancel it. Or found canceling too inconvenient.

Prettymuch the whole point of a subscription model.
IM(Cynical)O.

For years!? And it was super easy to cancel! Every time I did to save money for a while and come back or when the group was on a hiatus, it took exactly one minute to do so, including the time it took to navigate to the web page!

I'm sorry, but I cannot fathom taking seriously the notion that even a single whole percent of the subscription base was "I keep meaning to cancel/I still have that subscription?!/whatever" customers. 99.X% were people who absolutely intended to be actively subscribed, and any claim to the contrary is extraordinary to the point that it requires direct, strong, evidence to view it with any attitude other than laughter and the assumption that the speaker is making a joke.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That and not worrying about level 21-30.

I don't think anything would have saved 4E though as implemented the playstyle is to niche.

The playstyle is largely the same as any other editions, including 5e.

I wouldn't even be playing 5e right now if my group hadn't been able to transition witout changing our playstyle at all.