What is the essence of D&D

[Arnwolf666]

Essence of d&d
Fighter, mage, thief, cleric
Hp, ac, Vancian magic.
Everything else is just ribbons.

 

[Hussar]

1e the primary approach was the provision of magic accessible outside the class structure (skewed magic item tables, henchmen, expert hirelings) and prohibition on the most problematic caster type from learning everything (one chance to learn per spell and a cap on maximum learned per level).

Just a quibble.

It is one chance per character level to learn a spell in 1e and 2e. You can retry next level. Meaning that for most wizards, (clerics this wasn't an issue) you could typically learn all the spells you came across. It just took a bit of time.

Although, that being said, I did play an MU once up to 12th level that failed his chance to learn invisibility like 9 times.

 

[Maxperson]

Its only worth while if you use the speed factor rules sometimes 3 attacks even with the slightly less to hit at level one have very good aggregate to hit. The progression was crap but starting out? perhaps look again at the following tables... unless you were exceptional strength my fighter had 17 strength and that was basically +1 someone could make a character like Armstrong form full metal alchemist LOL .

Fighter / Paladin / Ranger

d20 roll / Character Level	Level 0	Level 1-2	3-4	5-6	7-8	9-10	11-12	13-14	15-16	17+
1	miss	miss	miss	miss	miss	miss	9	7	5	3
2	miss	miss	miss	miss	miss	10	8	6	4	2
3	miss	miss	miss	miss	miss	9	7	5	3	1
4	miss	miss	miss	miss	10	8	6	4	2	0
5	miss	miss	miss	miss	9	7	5	3	1	-1
6	miss	miss	miss	10	8	6	4	2	0	-2
7	miss	miss	miss	9	7	5	3	1	-1	-3
8	miss	miss	10	8	6	4	2	0	-2	-4
9	miss	miss	9	7	5	3	1	-1	-3	-5
10	miss	10	8	6	4	2	0	-2	-4	-6
11	AC 10	9	7	5	3	1	-1	-3	-5	-7
12	AC 9	8	6	4	2	0	-2	-4	-6	-8
13	AC 8	7	5	3	1	-1	-3	-5	-7	-9
14	AC 7	6	4	2	0	-2	-4	-6	-8	-10
15	AC 6	5	3	1	-1	-3	-5	-7	-9	+
16	AC 5	4	2	0	-2	-4	-6	-8	-10	+
17	AC 4	3	1	-1	-3	-5	-7	-9	+	+
18	AC 3	2	0	-2	-4	-6	-8	-10	+	+
19	AC 2	1	-1	-3	-5	-7	-9	+	+	+
20	AC 1	0	-2	-4	-6	-8	-10	+	+	+

Mages tables

d20 roll / Character Level	Level 1-5	6-10	11-15	16-20	21+
1	miss	miss	miss	miss	10
2	miss	miss	miss	miss	9
3	miss	miss	miss	10	8
4	miss	miss	miss	9	7
5	miss	miss	miss	8	6
6	miss	miss	10	7	5
7	miss	miss	9	6	4
8	miss	miss	8	5	3
9	miss	10	7	4	2
10	miss	9	6	3	1
11	AC 10	8	5	2	0
12	AC 9	7	4	1	-1
13	AC 8	6	3	0	-2
14	AC 7	5	2	-1	-3
15	AC 6	4	1	-2	-4
16	AC 5	3	0	-3	-5
17	AC 4	2	-1	-4	-6
18	AC 3	1	-2	-5	-7
19	AC 2	0	-3	-6	-8
20	AC 1	-1	-4	-7	-9

That chart changes nothing. ACs of 4 and 5 were common at level 1. That wizard needed to roll a 16 or better just to do....:::gasp::: 1d3!! At least the fighter could kill something he hit.

 

[Hussar]

Not long term, I think Pearl divers in shallow areas could last around 8 minutes with a lifetime of training.

Well, if by lifetime of training, you mean being about 16 years old, then, sure. See the Haenyo divers of Chejudo South Korea for a great example. All women funnily enough.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Don't.

Argue against the strongest possible version of your opponents' case. Nobody here and now has even come close to claiming what you're reporting to be the "majority" argument. So even if your report is accurate (a caveat on which I am extremely skeptical), so what? Do you want a trophy for being smarter than the dumbest person you could find on the internet?

This whole tangent started because someone made a spurious claim about defenders of 4e, and then someone else pointed out that rather a lot of haters make claims about 4e that are simply untrue.

 

[Garthanos]

That chart changes nothing.

It means they hit insignificantly worse than others at level 1 which means you were wrong but apparently unable to admit it.

ACs of 4 and 5 were common at level 1. That wizard needed to roll a 16 or better just to do....:::gasp::: 1d3!! At least the fighter could kill something he hit.

Did you miss me mentioning IF you are using the speed factor rules? NOW I will show you the damage was better than 1D3 Darts have a speed factor of 2 a bastard sword 6 and a scimitar 4 and the like. If you as a mage did something silly like toss a 17 on strength its 3d3+3

When weapon speed factor is the determinant of which opponent strikes
first in a melee round, there is a chance that one opponent will be entitled
to multiple attacks Compare the score of the lower-factored weapon with
that of the higher. If the difference is at least twice the factor of the lower,or 5 or more factors in any case, the opponent with the lower factored weapon is entitled to 2 attacks before the opponent with the higher weapon factor is entitled to any attack whatsoever. If the difference is 10 or greater, the opponent with the lower-factored weapon is entitled to 2 attacks before the opponent is allowed to attack, and 1 further attack at the same time the opponent with the higher-speed-factored weapon finally is allowed to attack.

 

[Campbell]

@Garthanos

No one used weapon speed factors. A mean like maybe a couple people. This is like the people who claim that Non Weapon Proficiencies were optional. Technically correct, but who cares.

@Maxperson

I am of the opinion that magic feels more magical when it does different things than what martial characters can do instead of doing the things martial characters can do better. A wizard should be able to do things a rogue could never do. A rogue should be able to do things a wizard could never do. To do this you just have define a niche for skill use so that skills and magic can complement each other, have different trade offs, and risks associated with them.

 

[Hussar]

That chart changes nothing. ACs of 4 and 5 were common at level 1. That wizard needed to roll a 16 or better just to do....:::gasp::: 1d3!! At least the fighter could kill something he hit.

Umm, no, they weren't actually. An AC of 4 or 5 meant chainmail or better and you generally didn't see that on too many 1HD or less monsters. And, guess what, at 1st level, the fighter and the wizard HAD THE SAME THAC0. :shock: Given a decent dex score, the wizard, at 1st level, was hitting pretty much as often as the fighter.

And, sure, they're doing d3 damage per hit. But, the bad guys are generally between 2-4 HP each. The wizard was pretty adept at killing 2-3 kobolds at 1st level, while the fighter could only swing his longsword once. 3/2 if you started using 2e specs.

To be fair though, 2e fighters were the pinnacle of fighters in D&D. Capable of killing a troll in a single round at 1st level. Something they've never been allowed to to before or since.

 

[Garthanos]

@Garthanos

No one used weapon speed factors.

We tried them once my DM liked fiddly bits, but the impact was nothing like Zards Dartmaster goo from 2e....

 

[Garthanos]

And it was still better flavor than a mage shooting a crossbow in 3e....