Pathfinder 2E Embedding Level Into The Narrative

[CapnZapp]

Personally I love "gimmick points" in systems designed for them, but I don't like to have them in games that already have buffers and checks to limit character death.

Clear examples:

Warhammer FRP: with a system designed to be deadly, where you basically can soak only one solid hit, Fate Points have been there from the very first edition and feel very appropriate.

D&D games: with levels and hit points you already have mechanisms in play designed to control and limit sudden character death, especially in more modern iterations where save or die is not a major issue any longer.

In simpler terms: since the risk of a D&D character dying once off the lowest levels is slimmer and slimmer, I really don't want to reduce that feeling of danger and excitement even more.

If you practically can't die, stakes are lower, and the game loses an edge as a result.

 

[CapnZapp]

As an aside, we stopped using Inspiration in 5E. As a gimmick point it obviously doesn't have power over life and death.

Still, in a game with so little crunch, it felt entirely wrong that one character works tirelessly to set up elaborate combos and use refined tactics to gain advantage (pretty much the only bonus you could work towards).

At the same time, the other character simply spends a point of Inspiration to achieve the same end result.

Worse, those two efforts don't stack - meaning the Inspiration mechanic actively disincentivizes you from engaging with the gameplay trying to pull of sound combos.

We ditched Inspiration completely once we realized it essentially offered a shortcut to not having to engage with the little crunch there is.

 

[Parmandur]

As an aside, we stopped using Inspiration in 5E. As a gimmick point it obviously doesn't have power over life and death.

Still, in a game with so little crunch, it felt entirely wrong that one character works tirelessly to set up elaborate combos and use refined tactics to gain advantage (pretty much the only bonus you could work towards).

At the same time, the other character simply spends a point of Inspiration to achieve the same end result.

Worse, those two efforts don't stack - meaning the Inspiration mechanic actively disincentivizes you from engaging with the gameplay trying to pull of sound combos.

We ditched Inspiration completely once we realized it essentially offered a shortcut to not having to engage with the little crunch there is.

Well, sure, it rewards role-playing...?

 

[Campbell]

@CapnZapp

You get one at the start of each session, can never have more than 3, and lose them at the end of the session.

You are right that after the first one each session it is entirely up to the GM to hand them out.

Right now I'm not entirely sure how I feel about them. For a more dungeon crawl focused game I would probably remove them. For a more character focused game I think I'm okay with them, at least heroic recovery because you are still like unconscious. Not sure about the reroll.

 

[CapnZapp]

Well, sure, it rewards role-playing...?

It sure is intended as such, but it does a poor job of it. But don't trust me on that, go ask Angry GM.

"It’s just this thing that’s easy to forget and sits in the game not really doing anything. It feels tacked on. Vestigial. An afterthought. It certainly doesn’t seem to have a clear purpose, as evidenced by the fact that the DM and the players get different advice about it and how it is weirdly disconnected from the mechanics that it seems to be connected to. It seems thrown in."
https://theangrygm.com/take-the-suck-out-of-inspiration/ (warning: longy rambly ranty, as always with ADM)

Based on this I created a simple replacement Inspiration system, but my players dislike for house rules coupled with their disinterest in "fluff intruding upon the crunch", meant we instead ditched Inspiration entirely.

Had the 5E devs offered a more mature better integrated system, that most importantly didn't displace good optimization, then maybe.

 

[Parmandur]

It sure is intended as such, but it does a poor job of it. But don't trust me on that, go ask Angry GM.

"It’s just this thing that’s easy to forget and sits in the game not really doing anything. It feels tacked on. Vestigial. An afterthought. It certainly doesn’t seem to have a clear purpose, as evidenced by the fact that the DM and the players get different advice about it and how it is weirdly disconnected from the mechanics that it seems to be connected to. It seems thrown in."
https://theangrygm.com/take-the-suck-out-of-inspiration/ (warning: longy rambly ranty, as always with ADM)

Based on this I created a simple replacement Inspiration system, but my players dislike for house rules coupled with their disinterest in "fluff intruding upon the crunch", meant we instead ditched Inspiration entirely.

Had the 5E devs offered a more mature better integrated system, that most importantly didn't displace good optimization, then maybe.

The displacement of optimization seems one of the points in Inspiration's favor, but easy enough to cut it out.

 

[CapnZapp]

@CapnZapp

You get one at the start of each session, can never have more than 3, and lose them at the end of the session.

You are right that after the first one each session it is entirely up to the GM to hand them out.

Right now I'm not entirely sure how I feel about them. For a more dungeon crawl focused game I would probably remove them. For a more character focused game I think I'm okay with them, at least heroic recovery because you are still like unconscious. Not sure about the reroll.

The Pathfinder 2 system I disliked already from the start. No veteran player would ever use up his last Hero Point for something as fleeting as roleplay advantages (and would hate it if his character perma-died because he did).

So the system can be rephrased as such:

• each session you get one bonus life, which you can use to stabilize et at (per the rules)
• each session you also get zero or more rerolls

What I still don't like is the mixing of combat boosts and roleplay/characterization boosts.

It feels weird in a game where you're supposed to desperately scrounge for every little +1 bonus here and Clumsy 1 debuff there... and then, out of the blue, you can have a full reroll which amounts to up to a +5 bonus!!!

If the points were limited to making sure your personality and character motivations come across, I'd like them better. Of course, then a reroll is just stupid, since evoking a character is not a game - just say each point grants you automatic success on the social (or exploratory) roll you deem critical to your character's core beliefs and skills, and get on with the role-play.

 

[CapnZapp]

The displacement of optimization seems one of the points in Inspiration's favor, but easy enough to cut it out.

I guess my point is, as soon as you start tweaking Inspiration at all, it quickly ends up easier to just shuck it completely.

Had the system in the core book not been its own curiously stand-alone section, and had it been better thought through to actually hook into your character's beliefs, alignment and background (etc), and had it not intruded upon advantage in combat, then we just might have ended up using it.

 

[Parmandur]

I guess my point is, as soon as you start tweaking Inspiration at all, it quickly ends up easier to just shuck it completely.

Had the system in the core book not been its own curiously stand-alone section, and had it been better thought through to actually hook into your character's beliefs, alignment and background (etc), and had it not intruded upon advantage in combat, then we just might have ended up using it.

I got your viewpoint, just saying that supplanting situation manipulation in combat with RP rewards is part of what I like about the system. The open-ended nature of the reward based on DM discretion is also a nice bonus.

 

[CapnZapp]

I got your viewpoint, just saying that supplanting situation manipulation in combat with RP rewards is part of what I like about the system. The open-ended nature of the reward based on DM discretion is also a nice bonus.

And I get your viewpoint; just that the system doesn't achieve those goals very cleanly or elegantly or even at all.

Basically, are we evaluating the system as-is or what it could have been. I'm a teeny weeny too experienced (call it jaded if you will) to just give half-cooked systems a pass, but if you feel more generous than I, sure the system does do it.