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D&D General Compelling and Differentiated Gameplay For Spellcasters and Martial Classes

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
For some perspective in terms of the Robin Laws' Player Types I am an equal mix of Method Actor and Tactician. I view playing the game as my character and playing a game strategically as equally important. I prefer games where these desires are not in conflict.

While the Robin Laws player types are somewhat useful I find Quantic Labs Gamer Motivation more useful because it provides a more complete picture of what players value. I use it in my own home games as a starting point to talk about what we like in games. While it is designed for video games I think there is a lot of crossover between how most of us engage with roleplaying games and video games. It is definitely the case for me.

Here's my profile:

Gamers with high Action scores are aggressive and like to jump in the fray and be surrounded by dramatic visuals and effects. Gamers with low Action scores prefer slower-paced games with calmer settings.


Destruction (8%): Gamers who score high on this component are agents of chaos and destruction. They love having many tools at their disposal to blow things up and cause relentless mayhem. They enjoy games with lots of guns and explosives. They gravitate towards titles like Call of Duty and Battlefield. And if they accidentally find themselves in games like The Sims, they are the ones who figure out innovative ways to get their Sims killed.

Excitement (87%): Gamers who score high on this component enjoy games that are fast-paced, intense, and provide a constant adrenaline rush. They want to be surprised. They want gameplay that is full of action and thrills, and rewards them for rapid reaction times. While this style of gameplay can be found in first-person shooters like Halo, it can also be found in games like Street Fighter and Injustice, as well as energetic platformers like BIT.TRIP RUNNER.

Gamers with high Social scores enjoy interacting with other players, often regardless of whether they are collaborating or competing with them. Gamers with low Social scores prefer solo gaming experiences where they can be independent.

Competition (97%): Gamers who score high on this component enjoy competing with other players, often in duels, matches, or team-vs-team scenarios. Competitive gameplay can be found in titles like Starcraft, League of Legends, or the PvP Battlegrounds in World of Warcraft. But competition isn’t always overtly combative; competitive players may care about being acknowledged as the best healer in a guild, or having a high ranking/level on a Facebook farming game relative to their friends.

Community (95%): Gamers who score high on Community enjoy socializing and collaborating with other people while gaming. They like chatting and grouping up with other players. This might be playing Portal 2 with a friend, playing Mario Kart at a party, or being part of a large guild/clan in an online game. They enjoy being part of a team working towards a common goal. For them, games are an integral part of maintaining their social network.

Gamers with high Mastery scores like challenging gaming experiences with strategic depth and complexity. Gamers with low Mastery scores enjoy being spontaneous in games and prefer games that are accessible and forgiving when mistakes are made.

Challenge (98%): Gamers who score high on Challenge enjoy playing games that rely heavily on skill and ability. They are persistent and take the time to practice and hone their gameplay so they can take on the most difficult missions and bosses that the game can offer. These gamers play at the highest difficulty settings and don’t mind failing missions repeatedly in games like Dark Souls because they know it’s the only way they’ll master the game. They want gameplay that constantly challenges them.

Strategy (94%): Gamers who score high on this component enjoy games that require careful decision-making and planning. They like to think through their options and likely outcomes. These may be decisions related to balancing resources and competing goals, managing foreign diplomacy, or finding optimal long-term strategies. They tend to enjoy both the tactical combat in games like XCOM or Fire Emblem, as well as seeing their carefully-devised plans come to fruition in games like Civilization, Cities: Skylines, or Europa Universalis.

Gamers with high Achievement scores are driven to accrue power, rare items, and collectibles, even if this means grinding for a while. Gamers with low Achievement scores have a relaxed attitude towards in-game achievements and don’t worry too much about their scores or progress in the game.

Completion (5%): Gamers with high Completion scores want to finish everything the game has to offer. They try to complete every mission, find every collectible, and discover every hidden location. For some players, this may mean completing every listed achievement or unlocking every possible character/move in a game. For gamers who score high on Design, this may mean collecting costumes and mounts in games like World of Warcraft.

Power (0%): Gamers who score high on this component strive for power in the context of the game world. They want to become as powerful as possible, seeking out the tools and equipment needed to make this happen. In RPGs and action games, this may mean maxing stats or acquiring the most powerful weapons or artifacts. Power and Completion often go hand in hand, but some players enjoy collecting cosmetic items without caring about power, and some players prefer attaining power through strategic optimization rather than grinding.

Gamers with high Creativity scores are constantly experimenting with their game worlds and tailoring them with their own designs and customizations. Gamers with low Creativity scores are more practical in their gaming style and accept their game worlds as they are.

Discovery (15%): Gamers who score high on Discovery are constantly asking “What if?” For them, game worlds are fascinating contraptions to open up and tinker with. In an MMO, they might swim out to the edge of the ocean to see what happens. In MineCraft, they might experiment with whether crafting outcomes differ by the time of day or proximity to zombies. They “play” games in the broadest sense of the word, often in ways not intended or imagined by the game’s developers.

Design (90%): Gamers who score high on this component want to actively express their individuality in the game worlds they find themselves in. In games like Mass Effect, they put a lot of time and effort in the character creation process. In city-building games or space strategy games, they take the time to design and customize exactly how their city or spaceships look. To this end, they prefer games that provide the tools and assets necessary to make this possible and easy to do.

Gamers with high Immersion scores want games with interesting narratives, characters, and settings so they can be deeply immersed in the alternate worlds created by games. Gamers with low Immersion scores are more grounded in the game play mechanics and care less about the narrative experiences that games offer.

Fantasy (92%): Gamers who score high on Fantasy want their gaming experiences to allow them to become someone else, somewhere else. They enjoy the sense of being immersed in an alter ego in a believable alternate world, and enjoy exploring a game world just for the sake of exploring it. These gamers enjoy games like Skyrim, Fallout, and Mass Effect for their fully imagined alternate settings.

Story (89%): Gamers who score high on Story want games with elaborate campaign storylines and a cast of multidimensional characters with interesting back-stories and personalities. They take the time to delve into the back-stories of characters in games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect, and enjoy the elaborate and thoughtful narratives in games like The Last of Us and BioShock. Gamers who score low on Story tend to find dialogue and quest descriptions to be distracting and skip through them if possible.

For the purposes of this discussion I think The Mastery Component and Immersion Component are most fruitful.
 

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Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Or just a preference. I don't want my fighter to be supernatural. If I want to play a supernatural character I can. If I want more skills I'll play a rogue.

I get it. But not every game can be for everyone, I'd be surprised if there weren't plenty of options in the dmsguild that has more options.

Just don't expect anything official, what we have works for most people.

I do not want a fighter that feels supernatural either. There are already too many fighter abilities already that are rationed off a short rest or long rest with little direct correspondence to the fiction. If I had my way we would replace action surge, second wind, daily rages, and superiority dice with more interesting at will abilities. I want a fighter that is more interesting to play without resorting to those things. I still want a fighter to feel like a fighter.

From my perspective the way to limit the use of martial abilities should be fictional constraints. Maybe something like exhaustion levels, but less punishing.

I do wish that most classes got more skills. If I ran the world Bards and Rogues would have more breadth in skills and not more depth. Bards should not be better wrestlers than Barbarians.
 

Eubani

Legend
Or just a preference. I don't want my fighter to be supernatural. If I want to play a supernatural character I can. If I want more skills I'll play a rogue.

I get it. But not every game can be for everyone, I'd be surprised if there weren't plenty of options in the dmsguild that has more options.

Just don't expect anything official, what we have works for most people.
Was the word supernatural used? We are talking agency which does not need supernatural.
 



FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
You are speaking on behalf of a lot of people you don't know without figures to back up your statement.

If you disagree with him then say it. If you don't then this comment is pointless. No need to turn the conversation into a "you really can't know that conversation" when the entire reason for your bringing the "you really can't know that" into the conversation is because you disagree with his point IMO.
 


FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Am I the only one who gets sick of hearing "just role play better" or use your skills as an excuse to do nothing about the gulf between casters and martial characters? This totally ignores that the casters can roleplay and use skills alongside their mechanics to get through situations be they exploratory or social. Meanwhile martial characters are constantly been beaten with the realism stick and told that they have everything they need so there is no need for them to get extra mechanics. An utterly hypocritical argument.

There's a fine line with being beaten by the realism stick and trying to keep the setting grounded in realism.
 

Eubani

Legend
Hmmm. Ok. You have my attention. Elaborate on this please. Id like to make sure i know what you are getting at.
I am not sure I can put what I think well enough in words to convey my thoughts but I will try. It is about the means effectively act and the tools to do so. Ability checks and role play are a level of agency to act and cause effect that all characters have and many argue this is all martial characters need. The spells and special mechanics that spellcasters have add further agency to effect and challenge. This automatically creates an unbalance of agency, supposedly martial characters should be happy enough with ability checks and roleplay yet spell casters get a free pass to have more without argument.

I am not saying that spellcasters should not get spells after all that is what makes them what they are. Yet there seems to be little to no effort put in over the last 40 odd years to create a parity in agency - the ability to act, effect and challenge a situation. The argument always seems to come down to anything more than ability checks and roleplay is supernatural which is not true. In every edition the spell list of casters just grew and grew over the life of an edition constantly increasing their agency whilst martial classes rarely gained further agency after the PHB is released.

Another problem is that martial characters are saddled with "realism" which as they level gets put more and more under the microscope whilst spell casters as they grow go absolutely gonzo. Bob the epic warrior can jump further than many are comfortable with whilst Jim the Wizard is altering reality and playing with time. Iam not sure I have answered your question satifactionaly @Son of the Serpent but if I continue it will go into more of a rant territory.
 
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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I do not want a fighter that feels supernatural either. There are already too many fighter abilities already that are rationed off a short rest or long rest with little direct correspondence to the fiction. If I had my way we would replace action surge, second wind, daily rages, and superiority dice with more interesting at will abilities. I want a fighter that is more interesting to play without resorting to those things. I still want a fighter to feel like a fighter.

From my perspective the way to limit the use of martial abilities should be fictional constraints. Maybe something like exhaustion levels, but less punishing.

I do wish that most classes got more skills. If I ran the world Bards and Rogues would have more breadth in skills and not more depth. Bards should not be better wrestlers than Barbarians.

There's what 19 skills? A single class will get 4-7. A party of 4 can have someone that's proficient in every skill that's in the game. I don't think giving more skill proficiencies is the way to go.

Part of the supremacy of spell casters centers around burst capabilities. If martial characters don't have any burst capabilities then full casters can always surpass them in the combat pillar when it matters most. You've just relegated martials to being nearly fully inferior to casters. As such martials must have burst damage capabilities for game balance.

Personally I don't find there's a fictional reason for spellcasting to work as it does. So I already dissaccioate the spell casting mechanics from my in game fictional world. So I don't really find the need for melee mechanics to be associated to fiction either. In fact, there's no mechanic that associates well to melee while allowing melee characters to do non-randomized burst damage.
 

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