D&D General Compelling and Differentiated Gameplay For Spellcasters and Martial Classes

@FrogReaver

I don't see how what you've posted disputes anything that I wrote above.

WOW. The OP says I'm talking about problems with D&D and want to discuss potential solutions and the way you take this to mean that we shouldn't criticize any potential solution when it's something that won't work with a majority of current D&D fans?

1) I know Campbell. I know he isn't doing what you apparently think he's doing (trying to entertain a design exercise while simultaneously being constrained by D&D cultural legacy).

Doesn't matter. It matters what he said.

2) Even if I didn't know Campbell, I can engage with a plain reading of his words.

Then do that. You'll see you were misreading them.

His words don't produce any interpretation that would lead me to believe that he is a new WotC rep and he is soliciting feedback on a new edition in order to:

Well when you create a strawman to beat down it's pretty easy to do so.

2a) Instantiate the next version of D&D.

2b) Monetize a hack for the 5e fanbase.

So? That the design goal is about fixing D&D's problems means critiquing a solution as not working for D&D fans is a valid criticism.

3) Fighter, Monk, Sorcerer, Cleric are not remotely D&D exclusive. They are pervasive across the spectrum of CRPGs, boardgames, and TTRPGs (be they D&D Fantasy Heartbreakers or not).

Maybe… Or more likely he's referencing the D&D classes since he starting talking about problems with D&D...
 

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Which, again:

1) is not relevant to the design challenge put forth.

It's the only thing that's relevant

and

2) I question whether you know many D&D players who dislike those games/mechanics who have actually_played them.

I'm not going to get into a knowledge debate. You want to take up the opposite position that the majority of players like those mechanics then I'll gladly debate that. But if your not willing to take up that position then it tells me all I need to know...

3) My experience differs from yours. I know many, many D&D players who like the mechanics of one or more of those games (and many other indie games like Blades in the Dark, Apocalypse World, MHRP, Smallville, Leverage, Mouse Guard, Dogs in the Vineyard).

People can like different mechanics for different games. Even if someone likes those mechanics in general doesn't mean they like them for D&D.
 

WOW. The OP says I'm talking about problems with D&D and want to discuss potential solutions and the way you take this to mean that we shouldn't criticize any potential solution when it's something that won't work with a majority of current D&D fans?



Doesn't matter. It matters what he said.



Then do that. You'll see you were misreading them.



Well when you create a strawman to beat down it's pretty easy to do so.



So? That the design goal is about fixing D&D's problems means critiquing a solution as not working for D&D fans is a valid criticism.



Maybe… Or more likely he's referencing the D&D classes since he starting talking about problems with D&D...

I'll just go ahead and let @Campbell let us know whose reading of the situation is reality.

If I'm wrong, no big deal.

I'm wrong plenty of the time.
 


Digging in?

What?

I have the cognitive capacity to process information. I have well-considered opinions on these subjects.

I'm not digging in. I'm posting words for you to engage with. If you think I'm "digging in", your frame of what is happening here is incorrect.

But, again, if @Campbell just wanted us to throw up our hands and say "nope, can't do anything because of legacy concerns of traditionalist D&D players and because of the inability to monetize a hack to casuals", then cool...I'm saying all the wrong things.

But that would be weird as all hell to write a well-thought-out lead post and convey particular concerns and a focused design challenge only to really mean "screw it...impossible...nevermind."
 

Digging in?

What?

I have the cognitive capacity to process information. I have well-considered opinions on these subjects.

I'm not digging in. I'm posting words for you to engage with. If you think I'm "digging in", your frame of what is happening here is incorrect.

But, again, if @Campbell just wanted us to throw up our hands and say "nope, can't do anything because of legacy concerns of traditionalist D&D players and because of the inability to monetize a hack to casuals", then cool...I'm saying all the wrong things.

But that would be weird as all hell to write a well-thought-out lead post and convey particular concerns and a focused design challenge only to really mean "screw it...impossible...nevermind."

Most of the solutions provided were trivial and work with no other design concerns considered. But once we add in basic D&d design concerns then none work. Because of this I’ve concluded something about that set of design criteria is inconsistent with the others. That seems like an appropriate conclusion to me.
 




And this is why I suspect most of the people here don't have the same issue. Most D&D players just aren't that good at accomplishing what you state here. They DON'T know how to cast a "well-timed" spell or "turn the tide" of an encounter or problem using spells. Rather... they decide to prepare a few spells in the morning, and they cast them as the need arises. But there's no fanciful pre-cognitive sensitivity towards having "just the right spell" for "just the right time". They have some spells, they cast some spells... just like the martials have a weapon, and swing a weapon.

I mean, my spellcasting players are just as casual and lacking in tactics as my martial players. And as a result, they all have moments to shine, as well as moments of them thinking "Aw, man... if only I had done X!"

If someone finds their spellcasting players are hogging all the spotlight... perhaps it might just be as simple as the players who don't wish to delve deep into game and encounter theoretics are playing martial characters so that they they don't HAVE to think about them. Or their more ingenious players are taking spellcasters simply because they do have all the options at their disposal, and even if you raised the capabilities of martial characters it wouldn't go high enough for them.

I have the same experience.

I myself always gravitate instinctively towards playing a spellcaster as my first PC in every game or edition... probably because I am attracted by complexity and its tactical applications, and it is quite obvious that the sheer amount of spells available outnumbers the amount of actions that a martial character can ever do.

But when eventually playing a non-spellcaster, I think this is the time when you should take the opportunity to study combat or exploration rules better, since you won't have to spend time learning your many spells, and learn how to use those rules flexibly and efficiently. If the rules system is good, you can go quite far in this direction (incidentally, I think that if you don't allow feats in 5e, you're significantly limiting this opportunity).

I know that people who aren't interested in thinking too much about it are often suggested by typical DMs or the books themselves to "play a Fighter", and assume the player will just do the same attack action all the time. But in fact, I've seen also many Wizard players just shooting an attack cantrip over and over, and it is practically the same complexity as attacking with a weapon. You still have to read about how to use your non-cantrip spells, but if you compare a low-level Wizard focused on attack cantrips with a low-level Fighter focused on basic weapon attacks, you can see how the Wizard is almost a physically weaker version of the Fighter that is compensated for this loss with a few daily tricks.

But you can definitely be a casual spellcaster just like a casual martial-type, or you can play either more tactically. And 5e did a MUCH better job than 4e to create differentiated gameplay for them if you choose to go deep into the tactical approach. Probably there is still more depth potentially in a Wizard than a Fighter (the latter would never have as many feats or maneuvers or abilities as the former can have spells), but the point is that the responsibility is very much in the players and whether their DM is telling them that they actually have a choice, instead of dumbly suggest the old "play a Fighter" mantra.
 

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