D&D General Compelling and Differentiated Gameplay For Spellcasters and Martial Classes

[Undrave]

The most interesting thing about the fighter is the second Fighting Style, but the choices are all so limited in their scope they don't usually synergies beyond the one that grants +1 AC.

Just because a character is simple to play doesn't mean it should be boring to level up. the Champion should have gotten its own Fighting styles to choose from. Maybe a handful of choices with a variety between purely passive (like the extended crit range) and ones that can be toggled on an off on a turn by turn basis like the Barbarian's Reckless Attack.

And "remarkable athlete" is pretty unremarkable. That feature, in addition to what it has, should have added a choice of expertise in any of the skill from the Fighter class list.

 

[Garthanos]

I also laugh at the when the new books come out with oodles of spells and no new maneuvers for the battlemaster fighter. The bias is rather obvious to me at this point. It's just part of the reason why I've moved onto other systems.

Its the revenge of the nerds edition...

 

[Manbearcat]

So far as I know, again, this thread is not about 5th edition (or, specifically, “gatekeeping 5th edition from undesirable elements”...that was called the playtest!)!

Why in the world do we keep invoking 5e and then framing the conversation around an effort to gatekeep 5e?

In reality, it would appear that Pathfinder 2e (a system that I’m not remotely familiar with and therefore could only speak about from a position of ignorance) is actually the catalyst for this thread (not 5e). So if a frame was to be used, that should probably be it.

But @Campbell was speaking broadly about “the D&D family” it would appear.

That family would include Moldvay, RC, 4e, 13th Age, PF, Beyond the Wall, Torchbearer, Dungeon World, the OSR, AD&D and all the rest. All of those sources (including our own imaginations and experiences external to them) should inform this conversation.

 

[Oofta]

Agreed not every game is for everyone, which is why I've moved on from the edition to other games. But it's undeniable that there is an inherent tension within the game between it's leashed martial classes, and the unchecked casters. It's incredibly stressful as the levels increase to make sure this dichotomy doesn't get out of hand and affect the enjoyment of the players as a DM.

Honestly, D&D 5e is a half step from a cartoonish power ranger show as it is. Casters can re-grow limbs, create inter-dimensional mansions with spectral servants, resurrect people from the dead, break the laws of reality, send their enemies to literal hell(happened to one of my main villains), and stupify mass groups of enemies with little consequence. The only thing keeping them in check is kludgy rules like legendary resistance which nullify their power, and long adventuring days. The second requires some precise DMing and adventure designing which gets more stressful as the levels pile up.

I just find it odd that as soon as some variant of a fighter can demonstrate feats of strength and heroics that emulate spells the community throws it's hands up and leaves the table. Martial classes seem pretty shackled to in-grained biases that have persisted over time. I started playing D&D around 4 years ago so it's interesting looking at these things from the outside in.

It was pretty awesome discovering that in other systems, like 13th age, some characters can perform feats of heroics without even needing to roll like the Rogue's swashbuckle.

But you can't do what you want based simply on strength alone. It requires some beyond-natural aka supernatural ability. There's nothing wrong with that, I just want to play a character that doesn't have that kind of ability.

Having fighters (outside of 4E) that did not have supernatural abilities is pretty core to D&D.

 

[Undrave]

But you can't do what you want based simply on strength alone. It requires some beyond-natural aka supernatural ability. There's nothing wrong with that, I just want to play a character that doesn't have that kind of ability.

Having fighters (outside of 4E) that did not have supernatural abilities is pretty core to D&D.

DnD could afford to be less mundane in its 'not supernatural' abilities then.

Otherwise, why even pretend a Fighter can go beyond level 8 or so?

 

[Manbearcat]

And I would say that every person I’ve ever played with felt that Fighters after a certain level HAD to be supernatural.

It is a physical impossibility to deal with the kinetic energy disadvantage inherent to wading into melee combat with a Fire Giant and a Red Dragon...unless the kinetic energy disadvantage is muted.

No human on earth deals with the tissue-damaging impact of even the most minor collateral deflection of a Fire Giant swing (wherever they’re swinging) or a dragon tail swipe (etc).

Your arm is a red pasty mist and you’ve fainted from vasovagal syncope. Your armor and/or shield mean nothing.

So whether D&D land creates genetic freaks well beyond our own outlier superfreaks, or latent blood of the Gods, or some kind of divine sponsorship...who knows ...but something else is happening...or the physics of the world are complete nonsense.

 

[Oofta]

DnD could afford to be less mundane in its 'not supernatural' abilities then.

Otherwise, why even pretend a Fighter can go beyond level 8 or so?

Because they're really good at hitting things? I don't think all classes need to have supernatural abilities to be special.

There are plenty of options if you want to do things that would be physically impossible (beyond supernaturally fast healing, etc), I don't think all classes have to fit that mold.

 

[Oofta]

And I would say that every person I’ve ever played with felt that Fighters after a certain level HAD to be supernatural.

It is a physical impossibility to deal with the kinetic energy disadvantage inherent to wading into melee combat with a Fire Giant and a Red Dragon...unless the kinetic energy disadvantage is muted.

No human on earth deals with the tissue-damaging impact of even the most minor collateral deflection of a Fire Giant swing (wherever they’re swinging) or a dragon tail swipe (etc).

Your arm is a red pasty mist and you’ve fainted from vasovagal syncope. Your armor and/or shield mean nothing.

So whether D&D land creates genetic freaks well beyond our own outlier superfreaks, or latent blood of the Gods, or some kind of divine sponsorship...who knows ...but something else is happening...or the physics of the world are complete nonsense.

The physics of giants doesn't make any sense either, they would collapse in upon themselves due to their own weight. There are plenty of stories of warriors slaying the dragon or giant.

I want to play Beowulf, not Superman.

 

[Celebrim]

So whether D&D land creates genetic freaks well beyond our own outlier superfreaks, or latent blood of the Gods, or some kind of divine sponsorship...who knows ...but something else is happening...or the physics of the world are complete nonsense.

What is going on is what is going on to keep mere mortals like Steve Rodgers or Natalia Romanova in a fight with super-powered freaks. On the meta-level you have a certain power of plot thing going on, and in the fictional level, neither Steve nor Natasha is really a mere mortal.

By the time you get a fighter above 10th level, they really can do pretty much anything Steve Rodgers can do. They can jump into water without a parachute, survive massive impacts and falls, and go hand to hand with things that are much bigger and stronger than they are. How they can do it is really not important. They can do it, provably, within the game universe. How you want to explain that is a negotiation between the DM and the player that D&D historically has never really been interested in. It's "something" and it could vary from character to character (even characters with the same stats). Figure it out yourself.

 

[Sacrosanct]

DnD could afford to be less mundane in its 'not supernatural' abilities then.

Otherwise, why even pretend a Fighter can go beyond level 8 or so?

No, DnD literally can not afford that. Last time they did, the game was a disaster and for the first time, another RPG took over as #1, which is as close to sacrilege in the TTRPG world as you can get.