D&D General Compelling and Differentiated Gameplay For Spellcasters and Martial Classes

[Don Durito]

You need some such ability. Even if it only gets occasionally used - because:
-1) Always facing off against a similar number of at level opponents gets boring and sometimes high level characters need to show off what being high level potentially means.
-2) Sometimes a group of players decide to do something really stupid that you hadn't really considered, such as assassinating the Orc king in his command tent while surrounded by the orcish army.

 

[Garthanos]

Then, in 5e, BA made much lower-level foes credible, to the point of being very real threats - but /didn't/ give the fighter anything for carving through them.

I am actually less familiar with it than you are though at about level 5 it seems there might be comparable ability to deal with multiple enemies as a 4e level 1. (most every 4e fighter has some ability against 2 enemies and obviously rangers do) ... but it really kicks off a bit later when various other bursts or stances and the like kick in I suppose.

Edit: Decided my original response was needlessly sarcastic

 

[Garthanos]

Anyone have ideas not attack everything everywhere? LOL

So maybe I do think 5e could use significantly more of that.

 

[Garthanos]

But remember the thread isn't about 5e and how much it threw away.

 

[Garthanos]

[/QUOTE]

The ubermensch intimidation effect was in Chainmail... just saying.

@Manbearcat It occured to me that apex predator effect at least part of it where one terrorizes enemies could be a reflavored banishment ... Might as well pick a bloody potent magic.

Apex Predator Stare or Perhaps Strike : The enemy you focus your attention on and who fails a charisma save flees the battle (perhaps hanging out in the distance) If somebody hits you before one minutes up your awesome presence dims in the subjects eyes and the terrorized enemy comes straggling back. Ok it actually might come back at a different specific location and be visible sometimes while doing so and sometimes not making it less easy to gank or more dangerous after wards (So your allies atleast could also get parting shots as it flees madly making that less of a problem).

Say instead of a charisma save make it an attack roll where the attack has to succeed by an amount equal to the enemies wisdom mod - your charisma mod. So your attention is an awesome attack in the first place. (then its wild flight from the battle is a response to a very physical act)

Wait we do have a mild version of this ... menacing attack as a BM fighter move. Pump up its volume... by giving a duration that advances a lot not just a round but lasts until the hero is actually hit by an attack and might means some sort of indefinite psychosis if it lasts beyond the fight then allow it to affect multiple enemies... enemies affected who arent hit may retreat 10 feat too. Then hitting you becomes a needed and a difficult thing.
(perhaps if you are hit by 2 others the effect ends too)

One way of level gating better versions of BM abilities is to give them a clause saying forgo performing one of your multiple attacks or two of your attacks of your attack action and the subsequent Superiority die enhanced attack will have this uber effect ... For menacing attack it becomes Apex Predator Strike increase subjects affected by the fear by one enemy who sees the attack within 5 squares (plus 1 per 4 levels higher ) and increase the duration to be based on whether the subject has hit you with an attack (with other special ending clauses for vtude).

Adjust mildly to taste.
maybe too complicated but if one sets a precedent of enhancing every BM power... or changing martial resist from a separate resistance roll to an attack modifier this would in general be better differentiated and that is the actual thread direction.

Oh and no reason not to give martial type tricks where enemies are not going to fall for it twice, or ahem resist or counter it easily right along side of options or instead of short rest fatigue style effects.

 

[Garthanos]

Since we were discussing hitting all of the things everywhere. One could allow a cleave attack as a normal superiority die attack then turn it into a greater cleave or wild swing where you hit all enemies adjacent when you trigger it by forgoing 1 attack as part of its cost.... forgo another to making it a lunging flurry affecting enemies 5 foot more reach.

 

[Manbearcat]

@Garthanos

I’m inclined toward mechanics to support this archetypal ability that:

1) Low overhead and handling time.

2) Broad/open descriptor and (therefore) wife application for both combat and noncombat.

3) Player-facing and doesn’t require GM mediation (basically fiat)

This is why I like a simple reskinning of Portent. If throwing the Frightened tag on it is necessary (eg if you’re immune to Frightened it doesn’t work), then compensate it with something mild (like a use can also allow an ally a 15 ft move in combat without OA).

If this was Dungeon World, the move would just require a table-facing fictional trigger (therefore no real GM mediation).

 

[Nagol]

@Garthanos

I’m inclined toward mechanics to support this archetypal ability that:

1) Low overhead and handling time.

2) Broad/open descriptor and (therefore) wife application for both combat and noncombat.

3) Player-facing and doesn’t require GM mediation (basically fiat)

This is why I like a simple reskinning of Portent. If throwing the Frightened tag on it is necessary (eg if you’re immune to Frightened it doesn’t work), then compensate it with something mild (like a use can also allow an ally a 15 ft move in combat without OA).

If this was Dungeon World, the move would just require a table-facing fictional trigger (therefore no real GM mediation).

Wife application, you say! My wife won't run any untrusted apps, unfortunately.

 

[Manbearcat]

Lol the autocorrect monster strikes again!

I’m leaving it for humor’s sake.

Oh wait...less sinister than my shady phone...d is right next to f. That’s unfortunate. This could have been a fine piece of data for a Trolling AI Apocalypse.

 

[Nagol]

The thing I always find somewhat odd about all the times I've seen this discussion is there is little attempt to generate capability in those areas I see non-casters as sorely lacking: discovering things, surviving hostile environments, and long range mobility.

Adding combat depth is mostly pointless since every class has become combat competent. Combat breadth may feel neat, but won't generally change a failing situation into a successful one.

 

[Manbearcat]

I agree (which is why I typically focus on broad, noncombat applications).

If this was Dungeon World, the 3 things you’re referring to would fall under playbook moves (there are several) or basic moves (eg UaPJ and the particular Roles therein).

 

[Garthanos]

Wife application, you say! My wife won't run any untrusted apps, unfortunately.

he could have left it at broad application and got a similar pun out of it.

 

[Garthanos]

Portent My Analysis
Flexibility some times to aid allies and harm enemies (nice)
Affects more types of rolls this is also flexibility (saving throws ) (nice)
Unpredictability : you don't know til you roll (ok)
Infrequent only twice daily or thrice when entering epic
Can include mediocre rolls well I suppose that is better than risking a bad roll
Can be wasted while you get it on exactly the thing you want you do not know if you need it.

Did I miss anything?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

A fighter with high STR often enough outshines the whimpy wizard.
STR checks are quite common in exploration.
If you don't build every fighter with STR 8 you don't have to complain.

 

[Undrave]

The thing I always find somewhat odd about all the times I've seen this discussion is there is little attempt to generate capability in those areas I see non-casters as sorely lacking: discovering things, surviving hostile environments, and long range mobility.

Adding combat depth is mostly pointless since every class has become combat competent. Combat breadth may feel neat, but won't generally change a failing situation into a successful one.

We've acknowledged this deficiency in the non-combat department and we've discussed it elsewhere. We're just focusing on combat in this particular thread. There's a brainstorming thread for non-combat capability if you want to contribute.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

The thing I always find somewhat odd about all the times I've seen this discussion is there is little attempt to generate capability in those areas I see non-casters as sorely lacking: discovering things, surviving hostile environments, and long range mobility.

Partly I think because there is little that will seem non-supernatural that can compete with teleporting, flying, and breathing underwater. Simply being the guy who can march for days at rapid pace is thematic, but not useful unless the rest of your group can do so.

Mostly however because any suggestions as to martial-based exploration abilities tend to get pounced on and demands made that they go to a spellcaster like the Ranger rather than a pure martial class.

Adding combat depth is mostly pointless since every class has become combat competent. Combat breadth may feel neat, but won't generally change a failing situation into a successful one.

True. The OP of this thread is specifically about both combat and non-combat options. The martial classes do have issues with options in combat, but it is their out-of combat performance that has the worst problems.

 

[Manbearcat]

A fighter with high STR often enough outshines the whimpy wizard.
STR checks are quite common in exploration.
If you don't build every fighter with STR 8 you don't have to complain.

Could you give maybe 5 pithy excerpts from play experience (2-3 sentences) where the 20 Strength Fighter is performing at relative parity in dealing with tier-relevant exploration challenges with a Wizard when both are level 14 or higher?

 

[Garthanos]

The weight of his presence, the specter of inevitability through him looming:

1) Moralized allies to heights they would be not be capable of otherwise.

2) Demoralized opposition to depths that they otherwise had no business falling to.

How do you accomplish this in 5e?

Simple,

Reskin the Diviner Subclass ability Portent and have it work mechanically in exactly the same way (because that is effectively what happens in our world).

Perhaps call it Bold Presence and in Epic tier Kings Presence

 

[Manbearcat]

Perhaps call it Bold Presence and in Epic tier Kings Presence

You can call it “Snortling Piggies” for all I care! I just want it to work and yield thematically coherent, tactically engaging play!

It could be done differently in different systems.

Dungeon World may have a Playbook Move like below:

The Weight of a Thousand Victories

When your allies or your enemies behold the spector of your resolve, roll Cha and Hold 1. On a 10+, gain 2 more Hold. On a 7-9, gain 1 Hold and your foe/obstacle shows similar resolve (your GM will tell you how).
On a 6-, mark 1 xp and your foe/obstacle is reinforced (your GM will tell you how).

Spend Hold 1 for 1:

- An ally takes +1 against the foe/obstacle.

- A non-damage cost/complication is lessened.

- A damage roll against you or an ally is worse of 2d.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Could you give maybe 5 pithy excerpts from play experience (2-3 sentences) where the 20 Strength Fighter is performing at relative parity in dealing with tier-relevant exploration challenges with a Wizard when both are level 14 or higher?

I'm not sure I've ever run a campaign where that's been on the table(npi). My longest campaign, AD&D, did go to 14th, did have (for a while) a fighter and a wizard, but the fighter (as it was a low-magic campaign and I never placed a Girdle of Stone Giant Strength), never had a 20 STR - and, in retrospect the party Druid and elf fighter/MU/thief dominated "exploration." I played a fighter(/ranger/rogue) in a 3.x campaign that got as high as 13th (technically we made 14th, but immediately retired), but there was no PC Wizard. Of course, in 4e it'd be the status quo in most skill challenges that could be classed as exploration - unless, of course, arcana was the driving skill. 5e I haven't gotten anywhere near 14th.