D&D General Compelling and Differentiated Gameplay For Spellcasters and Martial Classes

[pemerton]

The best way I’ve seen to attempt to model the cognitive space (with interesting tactical overhead) of a hyper-athlete at the table is either:

1) Card decks where hands have to be managed each turn (resource establishment and upkeep, decision-points about cards to put in play that can set up new plays later, etc).

2) Dice pools that do similarly but have subtly different decision-points (a la Dogs in the Vineyard).

I think (1) above is a good area of exploration for martial characters. Generating resources, pacing, upkeep, establishing a set-up, making moves that set up future moves...all the while dealing with the inherent elements of chance, risk, and required revision (will the cards I get next hand allow me to sustain my course or will I have to subtly shift or outright plot a new one)...that looks and feels like the martial decision-tree whether your opponent is a physical adversary or a wall or the jungle between here and there.

That would definitely differentiate the actual “at-the-table-playspace” and it would work nicely in terms of inhabiting the sort of cognitive that high-level athletes inhabit.

What's an example of your (1)? The closest I can think of, in RPG terms, is 4e - but you don't get new draws, so it's not exactly what you're describing.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Having a pile of HP is not an engaging gameplay mechanic. Yes it's impressive to survive a long fall but it's not something you'd choose to do meaningfully and you have no agency in it.

Yes, you do have agency, as I explained above. Your hp total influences choices you will make. When to retreat, when to dive right in, how long to stay, what opponents to fight, etc.

Fall rules cap at 20D6, that's 200 feet... which is about 7 times less than the distance needed to reach terminal velocity for a human (1500 ft) so the mechanics are also wonky on this. The terminal max should then be 150D6 for fall damage.

And speaking of surviving fall:



And she didn't have 20 CON... but it doesn't really mean anything, just a fun fact.

I suppose you've missed the several times where I've said that the fighter can do it without so much as a limp. Kinda a big different there and a full body cast and coma. Perhaps you should read your own citation material.

Yes I've read that post the first time you posted it...

perhaps you should read mine, because then you could have saved all this time looking up this stuff and posting it.

Except I'm not talking about superpowers, I'm talking about what real humans can do. the World Record for standing long jump is a little over 12 feet.

In DnD you'd need a STR of 24 to do the same. All I'm asking is that a Lv 20 fighter with 20 STR should be able to beat that record, which it cannot as the game currently stand. If that's a 'superpower' then a Fighter can never be involved in adventure past lv 10.

As for wrestling bears, I found an article on the subject:
Exploring the Strange History of Pro Wrestlers Battling Bears
Exploring the Strange History of Pro Wrestlers Battling Bears

"With muzzles over their mouths, their claws removed and their front teeth taken out ..."

Remember what I said about reading your own sources? I was serious about that. A big difference between a show where the bears were effectively neutered, and someone who can get into the ring with a grizzly (not black) bear and routinely beat it over and over with nothing more than a knife.

 

[Undrave]

I suppose you've missed the several times where I've said that the fighter can do it without so much as a limp. Kinda a big different there and a full body cast and coma. Perhaps you should read your own citation material.

That's just an artifact of the way the game models HP and has no injury rules.

But alright, here's another story for ya:

Juliane Koepcke - Wikipedia

The LANSA Lockheed L-188 Electra OB-R-941 commercial airliner was struck by lightning during a severe thunderstorm and broke up in mid-air, disintegrating 3.2 kilometres (2.0 mi) above the ground. Koepcke, still strapped into her seat, survived the fall to Earth with a broken collarbone, a gash to her right arm, and her right eye swollen shut.[2] "I was definitely strapped in [the airplane seat] when I fell," she said later. "It must have turned and buffered the crash; otherwise I wouldn't have survived."[3] Her first priority was to find her mother, who had been seated next to her, but her search was unsuccessful. She later discovered that her mother had initially survived the crash, but died from her injuries several days later.[4]

Koepcke found some sweets which became her only food. After looking for her mother and other passengers, she found a small stream. She waded through knee-high water downstream from her landing site, relying on the survival principle her father had taught her, that tracking downstream should eventually lead to civilization.[2] After ten days, she found a boat moored near a shelter, and found the boat's fuel tank still partly full.[5] Koepcke poured the gasoline on her wounds, an action which succeeded in removing the maggots from her arm.[4] She later recounted her necessary efforts that day: "I remember having seen my father when he cured a dog of worms in the jungle with gasoline. I got some gasoline and poured it on myself. I counted the worms when they started to slip out. There were 35 on my arm. I remained there but I wanted to leave. I didn't want to take the boat because I didn't want to steal it."[6] Because it was already dark, Koepcke slept in the tiny shelter, and in the morning a small group of local fishermen discovered her and brought her to their village.[7] The next day a local pilot volunteered to fly her to a hospital in Pucallpa.

You're right I should have read the bear article, but that's just the limit of everyday humans. A Fighter shouldn't be compared to putting on a show.

How about this one then?

Hunter Fights Off, Kills Grizzly With Knife

Hunter Fights Off, Kills Grizzly With Knife

www.huffingtonpost.ca

The grizzly was wounded but that's just balance for the inexperienced human.

 

[Manbearcat]

What's an example of your (1)? The closest I can think of, in RPG terms, is 4e - but you don't get new draws, so it's not exactly what you're describing.

I'm thinking of games like Unbound, Gloomhaven, and Slay the Spire.

4e pushed hard in that direction (due to its clear MtG influence), but not quite hard enough (in order for it to be recognizable for its playerbase).

If I was writing 4e, I would have gone 100 % in that direction.

 

[pemerton]

I want to play Beowulf, not Superman.

But to go back to @Condiments example, I would have thought that Beowulf - who can hold his breath and fight underwater for extended periods, and who can rip the arm of an ogre - probably can knock down his enemies by striking the ground with his hammer.

And I also think that no edition of D&D allows a fighter to do those things that Beowulf did, except perhaps 4e if the fiction is correlated to checks and to combat outcomes in a certain way.

EDIT: Having read through more of the thread, I see that I've been ninja'd vis-a-vis Beowulf and that you've chnaged your mind and no longer wish to be able to play Beowulf.

 

[Sacrosanct]

That's just an artifact of the way the game models HP and has no injury rules.

But alright, here's another story for ya:

Juliane Koepcke - Wikipedia

Again, a fighter can do it. Over and over every day and not suffer any major injury. Why do you keep ignoring that? Doesn't fit your narrative?

You're right I should have read the bear article, but that's just the limit of everyday humans. A Fighter shouldn't be compared to putting on a show.

How about this one then?

Hunter Fights Off, Kills Grizzly With Knife

Hunter Fights Off, Kills Grizzly With Knife

www.huffingtonpost.ca

The grizzly was wounded but that's just balance for the inexperienced human.

Against a wounded young bear. Congratulations. All you did was prove Graham was a low level fighter

A medium level, and especially high level fighter, can fight full grown, non wounded, grizzlies and win over and over with ease. They can take on T rex's. The list goes on.

You're only hurting your own argument here by what you're posting.

 

[pemerton]

That logic is the literal definition of a logical fallacy

Huh? There's nothing fallacious about it at all.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Huh? There's nothing fallacious about it at all.

"If person can do A, then that means they can do B and C" is literally almost the exact example given for the non sequitur fallacy

For example: I can fly a helicopter, so that means I can also fly a fighter jet and bunji jump.

 

[pemerton]

"If person can do A, then that means they can do B and C" is literally almost the exact example given for the non sequitur fallacy

For example: I can fly a helicopter, so that means I can also fly a fighter jet and bunji jump.

Until you know what actual terms are to be subsituted for A, B and C you can't say if its fallacious or not.

"If a person can run 10 km in half-an-hour, that means they won't get breathless walking up a 20 metre rise" seems sound to me, not a non-sequitur.

@Manbearcat gave similar examples upthread. He also made the point that, given that we're working in the realm of speculative fiction, the constraints on inference are about genre, folk sensibilites, etc, and not empirical fact. You see this in action movies where the fact that someone can fly a helicopter typically does mean that they can fly a fighter jet; the fact that they have legs typically does mean that they can ride a horse; etc.

 

[Oofta]

But to go back to @Condiments example, I would have thought that Beowulf - who can hold his breath and fight underwater for extended periods, and who can rip the arm of an ogre - probably can knock down his enemies by striking the ground with his hammer.

And I also think that no edition of D&D allows a fighter to do those things that Beowulf did, except perhaps 4e if the fiction is correlated to checks and to combat outcomes in a certain way.

EDIT: Having read through more of the thread, I see that I've been ninja'd vis-a-vis Beowulf and that you've chnaged your mind and no longer wish to be able to play Beowulf.

My recollection of the Beowulf story may well be hazy.

So how about: I want to play Arnold Schwarzenegger's Conan, not Thor