D&D General Compelling and Differentiated Gameplay For Spellcasters and Martial Classes

[Don Durito]

It actually kinda is. Fighters had a number of close burst powers (always enemies in burst you could see), but it was rangers and Rogues that got a few blasts, based on thrown or ranged weapons. (Fighters got ONE close blast: 2, enemies you can see, minor rider.... encounter 13)

Thunder damage was off the table (without a magic weapon), as was a big advantage of AEs, in general: the ability to attack enemies you couldn't even see with no penalty.

So, even though Thunderwave and Tide of Iron were both stand-out at wills that push, there was really know comparison.

I was thinking specifically of "Come and Get It' which was a group pull rather than a push, but had a similar effect to a certain extent - reshaping the battlefield.
- "The Fight is going to happen here".

You can push people away from your allies and follow after - which was more of a Battlemind thing - or you could pull enemies off your allies and make them cluster around you (Fighter). Both are fairly similar in scope.

 

[Lucas Yew]

At least in 1E's DMG, Gygax outright stated with brutal honesty that Wizards do grow into the most powerful class in the game. No lies that all class archetypes are equal, unlike 3.X, where the CR system claimed that all level X classed characters are equally threatening as opponents (snort).

Either cut to the chase and state in the rulebooks that spellcasters gain more bang (power) for their buck (XP), or try to regulate the value of XP as it were a real world currency as a good economic expert would do.

In a class and level based game, I never want any class which would be a ripoff, XP-wise. Unless the rules explcitly declares that they are unfair, like Ars Magica or D&D 1E, which then is fair game.

 

[pemerton]

Automatically assuming that you can do B or C just because you can do A, is a fallacy. Because you can't until you know for sure that B and C are the same as A

I think what you say here is obvious to everyone participating in this thread, including @Manbearcat.

That is, it's obvious to anyone that the fact that a person can do some particular thing doesn't mean they can do any thing (which would be: for all A and all B, if a given person can do A then s/he can do B).

It's also obvious that Manbearcat wasn't making any such claim. It is obvious in general terms what the Bs, Cs, As etc were that he was referring to, because they were stated in the post that he was engaging with and largely agreeing with:

It is a physical impossibility to deal with the kinetic energy disadvantage inherent to wading into melee combat with a Fire Giant and a Red Dragon...unless the kinetic energy disadvantage is muted.

No human on earth deals with the tissue-damaging impact of even the most minor collateral deflection of a Fire Giant swing (wherever they’re swinging) or a dragon tail swipe (etc).

Your arm is a red pasty mist and you’ve fainted from vasovagal syncope. Your armor and/or shield mean nothing.

Even Beowulf performed superhuman acts of feats that would make a fighter blush.

"There are additional examples of the use of fantastic elements in Beowulf. Beowulf single-handedly carrier thirty suits of armor from the battlefield in Frisnia and swims with them through the North Sea and the Skagerrak to Geatland, a distance of five hundred miles (120). In Beowulf’s early life, he swam for five to seven days with his companion Breca, killing sea monsters by night. During his swim match with Breca, Beowulf dressed in full armor, was attacked by nine sea monsters and killed them all."

I even remember his fight with Grendel's mother, where he swam into an underwater cave and fought her for hours without going back up for breath.

It just strains credulity for me to have your everyman fighter going with a mythical wizard to other-worldly planes to fight yacht sized dragons, and teleporting demon pit lords that can peel open plate armor like a sardine can.

The Xs, Ys, Zs, As, Bs, Cs etc are dealing with the tissue-damaging impact of a swing from a giant or swipe from a dragon; single-handedly carrying thirty suits of armour while swimming five hundred miles; swimming for a week killing sea monsters by night; fighting underwater for hours while holding one's breath; etc.

 

[pemerton]

Which is A) silly and B) not particularly relevant.

Magic is also silly. And far less probable than the driving and riding feats pulled off by amateurs in action movies. But is core to our games.

In LotR, Frodo's experience doing walks through the fields of the Shire prepare him for the gruelling trek across the Emyn Muil and then Mordor.

Etc.

It's part of the heroic fantasy genre.

 

[Oofta]

Magic is also silly. And far less probable than the driving and riding feats pulled off by amateurs in action movies. But is core to our games.

In LotR, Frodo's experience doing walks through the fields of the Shire prepare him for the gruelling trek across the Emyn Muil and then Mordor.

Etc.

It's part of the heroic fantasy genre.

Depends. Since you brought up LOTR ... all the fighter types were pretty mundane. Good at what they did? Obviously. Exaggerated, superhero or supernatural? Not really.

Speaking of the movies (since Tolkien didn't really go much for detail) was there anything any fighter did that could not have been done by a D&D fighter?

Sure Legolas was a Dex based fighter and therefore automatically more awesome. But he just shot a lot of arrows and did some acrobatics. Gimli? Tough GWM type. Aragon? Decent fighter, good diplomacy.

The list goes on. Those are the kind of fighters I want to play. Based on various numbers a lot of people have posted, the majority of people agree.

 

[pemerton]

Depends. Since you brought up LOTR ... all the fighter types were pretty mundane. Good at what they did? Obviously. Exaggerated, superhero or supernatural? Not really.

To paraphrase Eomer (but not too loosely): Strider? Wingfoot, they should call you.

 

[Don Durito]

Depends. Since you brought up LOTR ... all the fighter types were pretty mundane. Good at what they did? Obviously. Exaggerated, superhero or supernatural? Not really.

Speaking of the movies (since Tolkien didn't really go much for detail) was there anything any fighter did that could not have been done by a D&D fighter?

Sure Legolas was a Dex based fighter and therefore automatically more awesome. But he just shot a lot of arrows and did some acrobatics. Gimli? Tough GWM type. Aragon? Decent fighter, good diplomacy.

The list goes on. Those are the kind of fighters I want to play. Based on various numbers a lot of people have posted, the majority of people agree.

I agree. Those are the kinds of characters I want to play. But that's why I don't like high level D&D.

Lord of the Rings characters don't have to compete with D&D casters.
If you put Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli in the same party with the Scarlet Witch and Dr Strange it's going to be odd.

Leaving aside for the moment whether there are any issues of rules balance - conceptually something has to give.

 

[Oofta]

I agree. Those are the kinds of characters I want to play. But that's why I don't like high level D&D.

Lord of the Rings characters don't have to compete with D&D casters.
If you put Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli in the same party with the Scarlet Witch and Dr Strange it's going to be odd.

Leaving aside for the moment whether there are any issues of rules balance - conceptually something has to give.

I deal with that by ensuring that there's no 5 minute work day. If you have 5-8 encounters between long rests, the spellcasters can't steal the show every time because they simply run out of options.

Or maybe it's just that I view it as a team effort and sometimes some PCs are going to contribute more. In any case, I enjoy playing fighters in 5E even if they're not as flashy.

 

[Oofta]

To paraphrase Eomer (but not too loosely): Strider? Wingfoot, they should call you.

So? Aragon had a high con and maybe a feat or two that assisted in long distance travel. But he never literally flew.

 

[Don Durito]

I deal with that by ensuring that there's no 5 minute work day. If you have 5-8 encounters between long rests, the spellcasters can't steal the show every time because they simply run out of options.

Or maybe it's just that I view it as a team effort and sometimes some PCs are going to contribute more. In any case, I enjoy playing fighters in 5E even if they're not as flashy.

Like I said - talking conceptually - not in regard to game balance.

High level casters are more like Avengers level characters.
If high level fighters are Aragorn and Legolas then the game is simply not balanced.
If the game is balanced than they can't be Aragorn or Legolas (Maybe they were 5-10 levels ago - but if they're going toe to toe against the Tarrasque and actually contributing than they're more like Thor.)

(I have to say, conceptually I have an issue with the idea of super high level characters - the most powerful heroes in the world - still having to trudge through 6-8 encounters a day - the very idea of that feels somewhat mundane - but that's by the by I guess, as I've already said I'm not the audience for high level D&D.)