D&D General Compelling and Differentiated Gameplay For Spellcasters and Martial Classes

[Oofta]

Until you know what actual terms are to be subsituted for A, B and C you can't say if its fallacious or not.

"If a person can run 10 km in half-an-hour, that means they won't get breathless walking up a 20 metre rise" seems sound to me, not a non-sequitur.

@Manbearcat gave similar examples upthread. He also made the point that, given that we're working in the realm of speculative fiction, the constraints on inference are about genre, folk sensibilites, etc, and not empirical fact. You see this in action movies where the fact that someone can fly a helicopter typically does mean that they can fly a fighter jet; the fact that they have legs typically does mean that they can ride a horse; etc.

Which is A) silly and B) not particularly relevant.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Until you know what actual terms are to be subsituted for A, B and C you can't say if its fallacious or not.

"If a person can run 10 km in half-an-hour, that means they won't get breathless walking up a 20 metre rise" seems sound to me, not a non-sequitur.

@Manbearcat gave similar examples upthread. He also made the point that, given that we're working in the realm of speculative fiction, the constraints on inference are about genre, folk sensibilites, etc, and not empirical fact. You see this in action movies where the fact that someone can fly a helicopter typically does mean that they can fly a fighter jet; the fact that they have legs typically does mean that they can ride a horse; etc.

Automatically assuming that you can do B or C just because you can do A, is a fallacy. Because you can't until you know for sure that B and C are the same as A

 

[Undrave]

Again, a fighter can do it. Over and over every day and not suffer any major injury. Why do you keep ignoring that? Doesn't fit your narrative?



Against a wounded young bear. Congratulations. All you did was prove Graham was a low level fighter

A medium level, and especially high level fighter, can fight full grown, non wounded, grizzlies and win over and over with ease. They can take on T rex's. The list goes on.

You're only hurting your own argument here by what you're posting.

What was my argument again??

For the fall thing I just wanted to share some neat stories and point out that fall damage in DnD is kinda wonky. I mean, it is great that the fighter has a lot of HP (less than the Barb) but it's not a 'compelling gameplay element', it's just doing more of the same. You'd stop sooner to rest but you'd still be doing the same actions if you had less total HP. And usually a fighter isn't the one setting the pace of the work day.

I honestly don't know where I was going with that... I don't think I disagree with YOU specifically, I was just quoting some amazing feats that ordinary people have done and basically saying that doing better should be the bread and butter of a Fighter. Mostly I'm just arguing on how it works on a level based scale...

Basically, my point is that Graham over there isn't a low level fighter, he's not even a purely martial Ranger. He's a random NPC. Hence why he could win against a young and wounded Grizzly. A real Fighter with levels would have been able to take on an adult.

There is this tendency in DnD, from my perspective, to consider the Wizard as having finished Magical University after spending 'years and years' studying arcane secrets, but the Fighter is just 'a farmboy who picked up a sword'. I think we should consider that during all those years the Wizard was learning Wizardry, the Fighter was studying Swordery and training his body.

Basically, my point is that the strength of the Fighter is often beheld to an unfair 'average person' level rather than the extraordinary specifimen they should be. This carries on beyond the starting levels and anything that deviates from the expectation of everyday folks gets labeled as a superpower.

 

[pemerton]

My recollection of the Beowulf story may well be hazy.

So how about: I want to play Arnold Schwarzenegger's Conan, not Thor

In D&D terms isn't Conan a fighter of (let's say) 8th to 12th level?

As @Manbercat has already pointed out this whole discussion seems largely OT, but if we're going to talk about correlating D&D builds to fictional levels of capability doesn't level have to be part of the conversation? I mean, where's the magic-user whose 20th level power peaks at the Tolkien-esque?

 

[Don Durito]

For me D&D basically ends at around Level 10.

I've pretty much accepted that.

Past that point there's nothing to interest me.

 

[Oofta]

In D&D terms isn't Conan a fighter of (let's say) 8th to 12th level?

As @Manbercat has already pointed out this whole discussion seems largely OT, but if we're going to talk about correlating D&D builds to fictional levels of capability doesn't level have to be part of the conversation? I mean, where's the magic-user whose 20th level power peaks at the Tolkien-esque?

Well IMHO Gandalf (according to the books not the "history" that he probably helped write) was a fake. Always going to open up that can of whup-ass any moment now, just you wait. Boy you'll be sorry then. But what does he really do? Throw some flash-bangs at goblins and cause an old bridge to collapse that probably would have collapsed anyway because there was a freakin' balrog standing on it. Everything he does that's powerful happens conveniently off screen. He even takes credit for Merry and Pippin getting the Ents to help. All he really had was a fast horse.

So yeah. A D&D wizard has more magic than Gandalf.

But what matter does it make what level Conan was? He was a straight up fighter who ran around killing giant horned demons things.

P.S. I kid about Gandalf. Mostly.

 

[Campbell]

@Manbearcat

I will start with analysis of Pathfinder 2's noncombat systems.

There are some major changes to spell and skill design that make skills more competitive as players level.

• Both spells and skills have been curated so they occupy different conceptual niches. Medicine complements rather than competes with healing magic.
• When spells and skills do similar things they tend to have different trade offs and advantages. Charm does things you cannot do with Diplomacy, but Diplomacy does things you cannot do with Charm.
• Spells like Knock and Discern Lies that used to obviate skills are now potent buffs that benefit dedicated specialists.
• Skill feats allow players to extend skills in level appropriate ways so that someone who really invests in Intimidate is capable of much more than someone who is just trained. A high level fighter who is Legendary in Intimidate with Quick Coercion, Group Coercion, and Lasting Coercion can in a 6 second exchange threaten as many as 25 people into doing what he wants them to do for up to a month. With Scare To Death he pretty much has at will Fear that he can apply once per target per minute with the added bonus that on a Critical Success he can literally scare an enemy to death.
• Many spells are less certain in effect. Effects like True Seeing, Nondetection, Mindblank, Remove Disease, Dispel Magic and others are no longer automatic and use the new counteracting rules.
• Spells that used to have lengthy durations now last until your next daily preparation. If you want to maintain them you need to keep slots dedicated to them.
• Many spells like Teleport, Scrying, Mindblank, Dominate, Raise Dead, Magnificent Mansion and the like are Uncommon meaning they need to be discovered through play.
• Other plot device magic has been moved to rituals that take 1 day or more to cast, require secondary casters, and often have fictional positioning requirements and can have nasty consequences for failure. Examples include Atone, Planar Ally, Planar Binding, and Resurrection. These are all Uncommon. Additionally rituals can be cast by anyone with the required skills who has learned them.
• The spell lists are more focused. Even wizards are specialists.
• Even fighters have 5 trained skills out of 16. That does not include Perception (which includes Insight) because that is a separate proficiency every class is at least Trained in.

In general based on what I am seeing both skill users and magic users expand in their capacity to solve noncombat problems. Spells will generally help you do things better, but not solve problems on their own. Spells and skills tend to solve different sorts of problems, but powerful plot device magic is still a strong part of the game and even expanded in some places. Charm can now be indefinite as long as you keep a spell slot dedicated to it.

I would say that both spell casters and skill users have a pretty expansive forward trajectory and are both necessary to solve the problems you should come across. In their problem domain dedicated specialists are pretty much untouchable. Spell casters have an edge due to versatility, but mostly because they are also skill users and will use them to complement their spells. A wizard will rely as much on skills as magic.

It feels really well tuned to me. I have only seen low levels in play. So far skills are really potent and seem to grow in power as you level. Spells also feel in a good place to me. To a certain extent it seems like high level casters will still be the masters of the universe, but fighters are more like Achilles and Beowulf at the highest levels. They raised martial characters up. They did not not really bring casters down. I like that.

 

[Undrave]

It feels really well tuned to me. I have only seen low levels in play. So far skills are really potent and seem to grow in power as you level. Spells also feel in a good place to me. To a certain extent it seems like high level casters will still be the masters of the universe, but fighters are more like Achilles and Beowulf at the highest levels. They raised martial characters up. They did not not really bring casters down. I like that.

Not gonna lie, you got me SUPER curious even if I don't go for heavy systems anymore... I'm just doubting I'd find people to play PF2 with...

 

[Manbearcat]

@Campbell

Thanks for that breakdown.

Can you give me a basic example of the machinery of action resolution in play? Maybe use an example from our 4e PBP and transliterate it?

Are there gradations to action resolution? Something like:

Critical Success
Success
Success with Twist/Complication/Cost?
Twist?

 

[Tony Vargas]

I picked Thunderwave as an example because it's really not beyond the bounds of what 4E Fighters could fairly routinely do.

It actually kinda is. Fighters had a number of close burst powers (always enemies in burst you could see), but it was rangers and Rogues that got a few blasts, based on thrown or ranged weapons. (Fighters got ONE close blast: 2, enemies you can see, minor rider.... encounter 13)

Thunder damage was off the table (without a magic weapon), as was a big advantage of AEs, in general: the ability to attack enemies you couldn't even see with no penalty.

So, even though Thunderwave and Tide of Iron were both stand-out at wills that push, there was really no comparison.