D&D General Compelling and Differentiated Gameplay For Spellcasters and Martial Classes

[Oofta]

I think the point being made is that if you have fighters seriously damaging Huge dragons with their swords, you already are...

I don't assume fighters are "slicing through ancient dragon scales" any more than they stab through plate mail. They're trained to find that weak spot, the gap in the armor.

But hunters with stone weapons and no armor took down wooly mammoths. If you want to call "hitting things effectively with a sword" a superpower feel free.

 

[TwoSix]

I just use the alternate rules where a short rest is overnight and a long rest is a week or more. Add in some time constraints and there's no need for shenanigans. I've never had a problem getting in 5-10 resource consuming encounters between long rests.

A lot of problems, both mechanical and conceptual, go away if you use overnight short rest and multiple day long rests. Or if you want to be really aggressive, only allow a long rest when you level.

 

[Oofta]

A lot of problems, both mechanical and conceptual, go away if you use overnight short rest and multiple day long rests. Or if you want to be really aggressive, only allow a long rest when you level.

I agree, 5 minute work days really change the balance of the game.

 

[Eric V]

Differentiated gameplay across classes would require a few things, IMO.

For one thing, no shared spellcasting lists. Imagine a game where Necromancers cast necromancy spells, that's it. Illusionists only created illusions. Maybe a generalist wizard in there, but casts much less efficiently due to spreading her focus.

Different spellcasting methods. Anyone else remember the Channeler, Defiler, and other options from the 2e S&P and S&M books? Something like that, but really differentiate them. Maybe Channelers lose HP to cast (there's a wizard in the Sentinels of the Multiverse game that works like that), maybe Defilers damage the area and characters around them to cast spells. Might create some neat in-game decisions...

(As an aside, I know this isn't about caster supremacy, but early on the convo was about how reliable spells are; I agree, to the point where they feel more like science than magic. Robust systems like channeling and such would make them feel special again, IMO. If it's about supremacy in combat, what about re-introducing spell disruption?)

A set of maneuvers that for martial classes resemble the philosophy of video game mechanics. In "Injustice" my son rarely beats me, BUT...if he uses Martian Manhunter and manages to pull off one particularly difficult move, he can chain it to a bunch of follow-up moves that decimate me.

Imagine each martial getting a set of maneuvers like that, wherein if you pull off A (could be gated by a particular d20 roll), your next attack can be B (which gives bonus Z, a condition maybe), and if you get that, you can do C (which gives bonus Y, a heavier debuff?). Seems to me there could be a lot of unique designs in here, tailored to each class, making each one feel unique.

Spells that augment skills rather than replace them entirely. PF2 seems to have accomplished this, according to Campbell.

Just my first thoughts on the OP topic...there's some potentially really interesting ideas to be mined from this topic.

 

[Campbell]

Neovancian casting and the implementation of ritual casting seen in Fifth Edition only serve to make casters more potent out of combat.

At the very least I think ritual casting should go. It serves to increase spell caster utility, flexibility, and power when they do not really need any help there. I do not understand what the design intent was here.

I would very much like to see a return of real Vancian casting. Having to prioritize how to allocate your spells before you need to use them added a compelling strategic layer to play and helped keep caster utility in check.

 

[Eric V]

I don't assume fighters are "slicing through ancient dragon scales" any more than they stab through plate mail. They're trained to find that weak spot, the gap in the armor.

But hunters with stone weapons and no armor took down wooly mammoths. If you want to call "hitting things effectively with a sword" a superpower feel free.

I think the delta between the two examples is enormous, IMO.

 

[pemerton]

Differentiated gameplay across classes would require a few things, IMO.

For one thing, no shared spellcasting lists. Imagine a game where Necromancers cast necromancy spells, that's it. Illusionists only created illusions.

Rolemaster has this to a significant degree.

This thread is giving me a newfound appreciation for my RM heritage!

 

[Oofta]

I think the delta between the two examples is enormous, IMO.

Sure. The hunters had no armor, stone weapons and dragons aren't real. Quite different.

 

[Eric V]

Sure. The hunters had no armor, stone weapons and dragons aren't real. Quite different.

Yeah, enough that the fighters taking down a dragon several sizes bigger than a Mammoth is very much creeping into superpower territory.

Another poster earlier did a far better job than me pointing out all the things a high-level fighter routinely does/survives to make the case.

 

[Oofta]

Yeah, enough that the fighters taking down a dragon several sizes bigger than a Mammoth is very much creeping into superpower territory.

Another poster earlier did a far better job than me pointing out all the things a high-level fighter routinely does/survives to make the case.

Like I said if you want to label the current high level fighter as supernatural or superpowered, feel free. I don't think the label really matters.

All I can say is that when I describe a scene where the melee fighter lands a killing blow I describe it as taking one more whack at the Achiles Heel causing the giant to stumble so the fighter can hit the jugular. Or the fighter hits the arterial artery in the leg, or they pull a Legolas and climb the oliphant. Whatever makes sense for the scene.

When I say superpowers I'm talking about smashing the ground so hard it knocks everyone in blast radius prone, spinning so fast you can automatically damage everyone around you, throwing daggers into the eyes of every enemy within 10 feet in front of you.