D&D 5E Damage Spell Scaling

[FrogReaver]

Let me go ahead and make a disclaimer

1. I fully believe wizards are superior to fighters so I'm not dismissing that at all. I'm on board
2. Resolving problems with the wizard doesn't mean i'm ignoring problems with the fighter.

That should stop about 90% of the concerns I'm getting back about this topic.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Let me go ahead and make a disclaimer

1. I fully believe wizards are superior to fighters so I'm not dismissing that at all. I'm on board
2. Resolving problems with the wizard doesn't mean i'm ignoring problems with the fighter.

That should stop about 90% of the concerns I'm getting back about this topic.

You might want to edit the OP with that disclaimer for new posters. Just a suggestion.

My complaint is that level 1 and level 2 damage spells in level 1 and level 2 spell slots are broken BECAUSE cantrips scale. I don't see how giving more spell slots fixes that problem.

Giving more spell slots doesn't fix this problem, removing cantrip scaling damage does.

On removing cantrip scaling - I don't think cantrips are too strong - instead I think level 1 and level 2 damage spells are too weak later. So while this option would make them strictly better than cantrips - it's not fully fixed my problem as the problem is partially that the low level damage spells are flat out too weak later.

So really the issue (sorry if I missed this before) is that at higher levels, first- and second-level spells are no longer effective options compared to scaled cantrips and higher level spells. Right?

Let's look at a concrete example: Burning Hands vs. Fire Bolt.

Burning Hands does 10.5 damage on average. There is a save, of course, but you are also likely to get more than one target. If we consider those to factors to cancel each other out, we can say the expected total damage is 10.5 reasonably.

Firebolt does 5.5 damage average per bolt (up to 4). It requires an attack roll, so we could argue that expected damage is really about 3 points when we factor in typical hit probabilities. Scaling that up for 4 bolts (at 17th level) would be about 12 points, slightly higher than Burning Hands.

Before the final scale-up, Burning Hands does more damage (not a lot, of course).

Looking at your suggestion, I don't think it is OP.

Burning hands RAW 3d6
@level 5: 4d6
@level11: 5d6
@level17: 6d6

Still never as good as Fireball (8d6).

Would Magic Missile simply get another missile with each Tier jump? Seems reasonable.

 

[neogod22]

Let me go ahead and make a disclaimer

1. I fully believe wizards are superior to fighters so I'm not dismissing that at all. I'm on board
2. Resolving problems with the wizard doesn't mean i'm ignoring problems with the fighter.

That should stop about 90% of the concerns I'm getting back about this topic.

I feel like you don't understand how a wizard works, and therefore probably shouldn't play one. If you like single target damaging spells, then maybe you should just play an eldritch blast spamming warlock. That's not the purpose of the wizard. To put it in 4e terms. The wizard is a battlefield controller.

 

[FrogReaver]

You might want to edit the OP with that disclaimer for new posters. Just a suggestion.

Good suggestion.

Giving more spell slots doesn't fix this problem, removing cantrip scaling damage does.

It fixes 1 of the 2 problems.

1. Cantrips do more than resource costing spells
2. Low level damage resource costing spells don't do enough damage later to justify their spell level when compared to same level spells that don't do damage.

It leaves problem 2 wide open.

So really the issue (sorry if I missed this before) is that at higher levels, first- and second-level spells are no longer effective options compared to scaled cantrips and higher level spells. Right?

Let's look at a concrete example: Burning Hands vs. Fire Bolt.

Burning Hands does 10.5 damage on average. There is a save, of course, but you are also likely to get more than one target. If we consider those to factors to cancel each other out, we can say the expected total damage is 10.5 reasonably.

Firebolt does 5.5 damage average per bolt (up to 4). It requires an attack roll, so we could argue that expected damage is really about 3 points when we factor in typical hit probabilities. Scaling that up for 4 bolts (at 17th level) would be about 12 points, slightly higher than Burning Hands.

Before the final scale-up, Burning Hands does more damage (not a lot, of course).

Looking at your suggestion, I don't think it is OP.

Burning hands RAW 3d6
@level 5: 4d6
@level11: 5d6
@level17: 6d6

Still never as good as Fireball (8d6).

Would Magic Missile simply get another missile with each Tier jump? Seems reasonable.

Thanks, and yea the idea is magic missile would get an extra missile per tier as well.

 

[FrogReaver]

I feel like you don't understand how a wizard works, and therefore probably shouldn't play one. If you like single target damaging spells, then maybe you should just play an eldritch blast spamming warlock. That's not the purpose of the wizard. To put it in 4e terms. The wizard is a battlefield controller.

Even with this fix wizards will still be better at being a battlefield controller than direct damage dealer. Just because that's what he's best at doesn't mean he can't also sometimes do damage *GASP

As long as he can sometimes do damage then his damage options should be sensibly designed.

 

[neogod22]

A problem with design yes - a weakness no. I honestly want the most power neutral option I can find to fix the problem. So far my proposal is the most power neutral. Do you have any solutions or just ad hominin accusations?

We're on fundamentally different views. You want me to help you solve a problem I don't believe exist. The difference between level 1 and 2 damaging spells is, they can hit multiple targets, where cantrips only hit single targets. The reason they don't scale better when you cast them at higher levels, is to get the player to cast the higher level spells. Sure cantrips can scale higher in damage than level 1 and 2 spells, but they are limited to single target only. Not only that, but having the lower level spells not automatically keep going up in damage makes them more manageable. Sometimes you have to hit a friendly. As you go up in level, so does your save DC. If you're not trying to kill that friendly, you can cast a low level spell that might not do as much damage.
Again, the wizard class is a controller. They are the most tactical class in the game. They are not about trying to beat the fighter in single target damage. You really need to be a more intelligent player to play a wizard effectively

 

[FrogReaver]

We're on fundamentally different views. You want me to help you solve a problem I don't believe exist. The difference between level 1 and 2 damaging spells is, they can hit multiple targets, where cantrips only hit single targets. The reason they don't scale better when you cast them at higher levels, is to get the player to cast the higher level spells. Sure cantrips can scale higher in damage than level 1 and 2 spells, but they are limited to single target only. Not only that, but having the lower level spells not automatically keep going up in damage makes them more manageable. Sometimes you have to hit a friendly. As you go up in level, so does your save DC. If you're not trying to kill that friendly, you can cast a low level spell that might not do as much damage.
Again, the wizard class is a controller. They are the most tactical class in the game. They are not about trying to beat the fighter in single target damage. You really need to be a more intelligent player to play a wizard effectively

Obviously this thread is about a problem - and even if not a universal problem - it's an individual problem for me. If you can't engage at least on the level of helping FrogReaver solve his individual problem then why are you here?

 

[neogod22]

Even with this fix wizards will still be better at being a battlefield controller than direct damage dealer. Just because that's what he's best at doesn't mean he can't also sometimes do damage *GASP

As long as he can sometimes do damage then his damage options should be sensibly designed.

They are senseable.
At what point does a cantrips out damage. A level 1 chromatic orb? At level 11. At that point you have 6th level spells. You can easily boost the spell to level 2 or 3 to outdamage the cantrip at that point.

What's the maximum amount of people can you possibly hit with a level 1 burning hands? 6 of 3d6 each, that equals to a possible maximum of 108 damage. At what point can any cantrip beat that? No point. This is why your argument doesn't make sense.

 

[DND_Reborn]

They are senseable.
At what point does a cantrips out damage. A level 1 chromatic orb? At level 11. At that point you have 6th level spells. You can easily boost the spell to level 2 or 3 to outdamage the cantrip at that point.

What's the maximum amount of people can you possibly hit with a level 1 burning hands? 6 of 3d6 each, that equals to a possible maximum of 108 damage. At what point can any cantrip beat that? No point. This is why your argument doesn't make sense.

Why would you boost a level 1 spell to level 2 or 3 when spells at that level already do more damage?

And even if you do so, your level 1 slot is still sitting there... what? waiting to be boosted yet again?

While your maximum damage with burning hands might be great, you aren't likely to get it. You typically get 2, maybe 3, targets IME. My post earlier directly shows how at 17th level Fire Bolt can be expected to deal more damage than Burning Hands in total.

That isn't to say there won't be times when different types of damaging spells (single target vs. spreading the damage out) will be desired, of course.

I see his point and I don't think his suggestion is crazy. It is good, but not OP. Personally, I missed the autoscaling from 1E and wish 5E had returned to it instead of "upcasting" using higher level slots. Especially when you consider the dismal number of higher level slots you will ever get!

 

[neogod22]

Obviously this thread is about a problem - and even if not a universal problem - it's an individual problem for me. If you can't engage at least on the level of helping FrogReaver solve his individual problem then why are you here?

I can give you tips on how to be a better player, but if you lack the capacity to understand, then that's a problem you have to solve. The class is not broken, your capacity to understand it is limited.