D&D 5E Damage Spell Scaling

neogod22

Explorer
Why would you boost a level 1 spell to level 2 or 3 when spells at that level already do more damage?

And even if you do so, your level 1 slot is still sitting there... what? waiting to be boosted yet again?

While your maximum damage with burning hands might be great, you aren't likely to get it. You typically get 2, maybe 3, targets IME. My post earlier directly shows how at 17th level Fire Bolt can be expected to deal more damage than Burning Hands in total.

That isn't to say there won't be times when different types of damaging spells (single target vs. spreading the damage out) will be desired, of course.

I see his point and I don't think his suggestion is crazy. It is good, but not OP. Personally, I missed the autoscaling from 1E and wish 5E had returned to it instead of "upcasting" using higher level slots. Especially when you consider the dismal number of higher level slots you will ever get!
The difference between 1e and 5e is that in 1e and 2e, when the cantrips were level 1 spells, they had to automatically scale because you couldn't cast spells at a higher level, you had to prepare the same spell multiple times a day if you wanted to cast it more than once, if you prepare a spell you didn't use that day, it was a wasted slot, and if you ran out of spell slots, you were completely defenseless. Also then came the balance issue, where the wizard became so much more powerful than everything else at high levels.

Cantrips gave a wizard viability and survivability over those previous editions without breaking the game. If you're old enough to have played back in those days, then you should have recognized this.
 

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neogod22

Explorer
As an aside, our table switched to a simple spell point system and not slots. It worked better and allows for more upcasting and use of 1st-level slots (1 spell point in our system) by adding them up to higher power spells.
I would've loved to see a spell point system, it's so much better.

The problem with nostalgia ( back to my previous post), you usually remember the things you love, but forget the things you hate.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
How many spells do you expect to cast in a day? The number of spell slots went down only a little from 2e. There are still more than enough slots to cast only slotted spells at higher levels.

This varies greatly from table-to-table. We've had plenty of adventuring days were our casters ran out of spell slots (well spell points now...), and it wasn't because they weren't being played well... If the number of slots fits your table's style, that is great. We find it lacking at times, personally. Switching to spell points has made that a bit better and really focuses your resource management IMO.

And I see you completely missed my point when giving the examples of spells. Like I stated before, they did the scaling the way they did on purpose, so even though it's an option to cast a lower level spell at higher levels, they make it so that you want to cast the stronger ones instead.

Your chances of rolling all 6s on 3d6 is a lot higher than rolling all 10s on 3d10 or higher, the chances of even hitting only 2 people with does more damage than firebolt up until level 17, and if you're a smart wizard, you can find situations to make spells like burning hands more advantageous.
No, I saw your point fine but don't agree with your analysis. I don't care what the chances of rolling are on the dice, I am working with average or expected results. And again, playing the "if you're a smart wizard" line is only making you appear less worth my time. But for the sake of discussion...

A wizard should always look to use the most advantageous spell in the situation. We have many times when our table upcasts Magic Missile over casting Fireball. Why? Because there is often just one target and the expected damage for 5 missiles (17.5) is better than the expected damage vs. a saved-against Fireball (14). If the Fireball can be cast without risk to allies, we do that instead. Of course, if the target has resistance to fire, Magic Missile is superior again. And so on...

The difference between 1e and 5e is that in 1e and 2e, when the cantrips were level 1 spells, they had to automatically scale because you couldn't cast spells at a higher level, you had to prepare the same spell multiple times a day if you wanted to cast it more than once, if you prepare a spell you didn't use that day, it was a wasted slot, and if you ran out of spell slots, you were completely defenseless. Also then came the balance issue, where the wizard became so much more powerful than everything else at high levels.

Cantrips gave a wizard viability and survivability over those previous editions without breaking the game. If you're old enough to have played back in those days, then you should have recognized this.

Cantrips were level 0 spells in UA in 1E. I can't speak for the change to 2E, I honestly don't recall and would have to dig out my books to verify.

You also didn't have to prepare spells as higher level, the autoscaled. A Fireball in 1E did 1d6 per level of the caster. Period. IIRC 2E limited it to 10d6, but in 1E there was no limit.

The LFQW issue so many people seem to have was never an issue for our 1E/2E games. Wizards were super powerful, but spells could be disrupted by attacks (not in 5E) and when you did run out of spell slots, you were screwed unless you had powerful magical items to back you up.

Any power issues were balanced out by the fact that magic-users (let's call them what they really were in 1E ;) ) had to choose spells for their slots, preparing a spell multiple times, worrying about wasted slots, etc. You want to talk about having to play your magic-user intelligently? 1E was all about making the smart choices for spell selection and using those spells wisely.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I don’t even thing the wizard was over powered in pathfinder or 2E.
I mean, if you prefer to think of it as all Tier 2 and lower classes being underpowered.

That fighters are worse than casters is not an excuse to avoid fixing things about the wizard.
It's among the reasons to fix the wizard by reining it in, rather powering it up.

I mean, what're y'gonna do to try and bring the fighter up to par with the casters, if you just buff casters even more at damage, virtually the only thing the fighter does?

Simple solution: as a spell level becomes overtaken by cantrips, drop those slots. The power the caster was tying up in them has gone to his greater cantrip power.
 


DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
I would've loved to see a spell point system, it's so much better.

The problem with nostalgia ( back to my previous post), you usually remember the things you love, but forget the things you hate.
It is pretty simple:

You get 4 spell points per caster level. Paladins and Rangers get 2 points. Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster get 1 point IIRC (I'd have to check with our DM).

You gain additional points equal to your spellcasting ability score modifier. Mutlticlass casters add for each spellcasting ability score used.

Spells cost 1 point per spell level.

That's the general gist of it.
 

dave2008

Legend
That's basically my problem (well half of it). Any reasoning for why you chose the solution to nerf the free magic instead of buffing the few resource draining spells.
We generally believe magic, and magic using characters are a little too powerful/versatile so a nerf seemed more appropriate. We also got rid of at-will cantrips. Instead you can cast any cantrip you know up the number of cantrips you have + you spell casting modifier per day. This often is the same as "at-will," in our adventures, but it feels more thematic to us.

The other half of my problem is that non-damage level 1 and 2 spells are much more powerful than damage dealing level 1 and 2 spells. Buffing the damage of level 1 and 2 spells helps with both of those issues.
That is not an issue we have experienced, but if it is for you and your group - give it a go. Like I said before, I don't think it will make much of a difference. It is really story building/ preference IMO.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Magic item are great to benchmark new feature.
You don’t feel obligated to allow the feature to everyone, forever.
If it pass the test, you insert it as class feature or general rule.
We are just in a play test process here.

The feature I'm talking about isn't powerful and isn't going to break anything. No need to benchmark it - we already know how it's going to work.

The only complaints I'm seeing are that 1) wizards are fine as is and 2) what about the fighter

That's really all I'm seeing. My take away is that if wizards are fine as is then this change won't change that. They will still be fine as is with my change - because it's really such a minor mechanical change. Regarding the fighter, it doesn't make sense that a wizard can't be internally fixed before thinking about how to solve the underpowered fighter issue.

That fighter solution may very well involve weakening the wizard - which i'm fine with if that's the purpose - but I don't need to worry about fixing the fighter when my goal is fixing the wizard so that his internal options are a little more balanced with his other abilities.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
We generally believe magic, and magic using characters are a little too powerful/versatile so a nerf seemed more appropriate. We also got rid of at-will cantrips. Instead you can cast any cantrip you know up the number of cantrips you have + you spell casting modifier per day. This often is the same as "at-will," in our adventures, but it feels more thematic to us.

See, if I was trying to design a solution to the magic - nonmagical character gap then I would fully get on board with a wizard nerf of some kind. But that's not the problem I'm trying to fix and I don't really think nerfing cantrip damage is the fix i'd go for even if it was. That's why I'm amazed it keeps getting brought up.

The decision to fix a minor wizard issues doesn't equate to a decision that the fighter is fine as is. Trying to fix the internal wizard issues and the fighter caster gap at the same time is a recipe for failure IMO. Those are independent problems and should be dealt with independently.

That is not an issue we have experienced, but if it is for you and your group - give it a go. Like I said before, I don't think it will make much of a difference. It is really story building/ preference IMO.

Some issues you experience and just don't perceive. Usually it's reflection after the fact that brings those to light.
 

dave2008

Legend
See, if I was trying to design a solution to the magic - nonmagical character gap then I would fully get on board with a wizard nerf of some kind. But that's not the problem I'm trying to fix and I don't really think nerfing cantrip damage is the fix i'd go for even if it was. That's why I'm amazed it keeps getting brought up.

The decision to fix a minor wizard issues doesn't equate to a decision that the fighter is fine as is. Trying to fix the internal wizard issues and the fighter caster gap at the same time is a recipe for failure IMO. Those are independent problems and should be dealt with independently.
I didn't say anything about martial vs caster power or balance. That is not a problem for our group. It is a generally world building preference. If you can always cast a cantrip every 6 seconds it makes magic a little to omnipresent IOO (is that the right acronym for In Our Opinion). It creates world building issues and hurts our suspension of disbelief.

Some issues you experience and just don't perceive. Usually it's reflection after the fact that brings those to light.
Let me clarify: is not an issue we have perceive and therefor has not had any noticeable impact in our fun.
 

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