D&D General Compelling and Differentiated Gameplay For Spellcasters and Martial Classes

To me this search for give fighter more alternate power to feel competitive is going into a dead end.
Magic open up possibilities that cannot be reach by a non magical fighter.
Teleportation, Levitation, polymorph, clone, resurrection,
The fighter is taken into a world of magic, and he had to react accordingly.
hopefully we are in a role play game.
The presence of magic give a lot a occasion and hint to role play a character even if he is not the source of magic.
Fighter and wizard are not competing to win the game at the end of the session.
The player who play a fighter is there to feel and make live a fighter hero in a world of magic.
4Ed have try to level the experience of all classes. It has been a dramatic failure.
So the solution is in the role play.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
...but when I do, it's a warlord build. ;)
A lazylord or prince/princess build is one of those ironies able to contribute in any context but doing so with function and flavor of the non-combatant.... Enabled by the mechanics of a Warrior Lord / Lord of War. Kind of Evokes what the fighting is about.... having someone to fight for can make heroes even more heroic.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
4Ed have try to level the experience of all classes. It has been a dramatic failure.
It was a commercial failure, for a veritable perfect storm of reasons, including the nerdrage that surrounded it making it less likely new players would even try it.
But concluding that balanced games are bad, and, conversely, broken games are good, is not valid . Not just because it's ad populum reasoning, though that's enough, by itself.

So the solution is in the role play.
Nope. Never. (Yeah, that wont' get me in trouble; at least I didn't say "Stormwind Fallacy" ...oops. ) If you have to work around the system to get the desired RP results, it's just proof of either a bad system (as has consistently been the case with D&D - I'm sorry, I love the game, but I love in in spite of it's many, deep, and abiding flaws) or a system with design goals incompatible with the desired RP results.

Fighter and wizard are not competing to win the game at the end of the session
The player who play a fighter is there to feel and make live a fighter hero in a world of magic..
Two very strong points that argue to exactly the opposite of the conclusion it sounds like you might be aiming for.
A hero in a world of magic, is one who makes a difference in spite of the many challenges posed by that magic. Not one who's just a pawn in a game of wizards, whose decisions and actions make no difference, who's readily replaceable with a golem or summoned monster or off-the shelf mercenary.
The point of a cooperative game is, similarly, for everyone to contribute to winning the game. You don't win that game by making choices to keep another player down for your own glory. Making good choices needs to stand out as a good contribution - even if, say, they're sacrifices. An option in a cooperative game that requires the player to make decisions that net harm the overall chances of winning, in order to appear to be making an important contribution, is a trap option....

Not necessarily in the sense that nobody has ever honestly argued it, because this is the internet and I'm sure somebody has, but in the sense that it's the weakest and most ridiculous version of an argument that can hold some water.
TBF, it was a smaller part of the defending side of the Fighter SUX arguments on Gleemax… and I was too often forced to use it, myself. So there's some bitterness in there. ;(

Without going into too much detail, the broad-strokes panorama of the sorta-consensus we came up with back then, on keeping casters & non-casters, in general, and the LFQW with the elegant-design, but Tier 5 fighter as the L (also, honorable mention to the much less inferior Tier 2 Sorcerer), and CoDzilla and God-Wizards as the Q, often abbreviated as "Living World" was for the DM to devote the campaign to making spell prep & cast choices /exceedingly difficult/ via profound time-pressure, uncertainty via downright telegraphing some threats and presenting equally trustworthy seeming disinformation, and a constantly-changing tapestry of challenges. The idea was to balance the Fighter by either/both making the 'day' drag on so long that the casters were tapped out of their best combat spells for multiple combats, relying on the fighters through some important battles, or, were so uncertain and so fearful of needing spells later that they passed on casting them even at ideal moments, letting the fighters shine (but not the party die), then being left holding spells they ended up not needing later afterall. Similarly, BTW, wizards could be goaded into taking slates of highly situational spells that turned out to be useless due to disinformation, allowing the sorcerer a chance to shine spamming some generally-useful spell that was OK in the situation, while the wizard cursed himself for not prepping the /ideal/ spell. ...at the extreme fringe of that, there's "but what if the DM isn't doing a good enough job forcing the time pressure" and "well, your fighter as the 'natural party leader' should talk the party into showing some heroic fortitude and bravely pressing on!" Which, actually, sounds kind good - especially after selling the Living World concept all through a long thread - but, which, really, when considered for the perspective of designing for a cooperative game is quite dysfunctional.


It's not so much the matter of the DM applying just the right pressure every day as it is them applying different amounts and diverse varieties of pressure from day to day.
That /is/ the right pressure, yes. I should've made it clearer that it wasn't as simple as always applying exactly the /same/ pressure.
As long as the party doesn't know whether they're going to be facing one encounter tomorrow or ten,
Yeah, see, you get it.

then keeping around a fighter or other long-day character is a good investment.
That's the idea, the problem is that it rests on grinding down the resource-heavy characters, and reducing the overall effectiveness of the party, in order to glorify the low-contributing character.

The bottom line is that kind of balance-by-pacing mechanism both restricts the kinds of stories the game can produce, from the narrative side, and is dysfunctional as a cooperative game, on the system side.
If it weren't so enshrined by decades of tradition, the hobby would regard it like modern doctors revisiting the possibility of using leeches*.











* example chosen advisedly, because, yeah, actually, there are a few legitimate medical uses for leeches!
 
Last edited:

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I think if someone wants to play low levels only they should admit they are playing low levels only... instead of relegating martial combatants to 1 tier (2 if you include the farmer brown apprentice tier)

The bottom line is that kind of balance-by-pacing mechanism both restricts the kinds of stories the game can produce, from the narrative side, and is dysfunctional as a cooperative game, on the system side.
NOT doing this let the story be natural and let everyone have reliable climactic potency.
 
Last edited:

It was a commercial failure, for a veritable perfect storm of reasons, including the nerdrage that surrounded it making it less likely new players would even try it.
But concluding that balanced games are bad, and, conversely, broken games are good, is not valid . Not just because it's ad populum reasoning, though that's enough, by itself.

Nope. Never. (Yeah, that wont' get me in trouble; at least I didn't say "Stormwind Fallacy" ...oops. ) If you have to work around the system to get the desired RP results, it's just proof of either a bad system (as has consistently been the case with D&D - I'm sorry, I love the game, but I love in in spite of it's many, deep, and abiding flaws) or a system with design goals incompatible with the desired RP results.

Two very strong points that argue to exactly the opposite of the conclusion it sounds like you might be aiming for.
A hero in a world of magic, is one who makes a difference in spite of the many challenges posed by that magic. Not one who's just a pawn in a game of wizards, whose decisions and actions make no difference, who's readily replaceable with a golem or summoned monster or off-the shelf mercenary.
The point of a cooperative game is, similarly, for everyone to contribute to winning the game. You don't win that game by making choices to keep another player down for your own glory. Making good choices needs to stand out as a good contribution - even if, say, they're sacrifices. An option in a cooperative game that requires the player to make decisions that net harm the overall chances of winning, in order to appear to be making an important contribution, is a trap option....

TBF, it was a smaller part of the defending side of the Fighter SUX arguments on Gleemax… and I was too often forced to use it, myself. So there's some bitterness in there. ;(

Without going into too much detail, the broad-strokes panorama of the sorta-consensus we came up with back then, on keeping casters & non-casters, in general, and the LFQW with the elegant-design, but Tier 5 fighter as the L (also, honorable mention to the much less inferior Tier 2 Sorcerer), and CoDzilla and God-Wizards as the Q, often abbreviated as "Living World" was for the DM to devote the campaign to making spell prep & cast choices /exceedingly difficult/ via profound time-pressure, uncertainty via downright telegraphing some threats and presenting equally trustworthy seeming disinformation, and a constantly-changing tapestry of challenges. The idea was to balance the Fighter by either/both making the 'day' drag on so long that the casters were tapped out of their best combat spells for multiple combats, relying on the fighters through some important battles, or, were so uncertain and so fearful of needing spells later that they passed on casting them even at ideal moments, letting the fighters shine (but not the party die), then being left holding spells they ended up not needing later afterall. Similarly, BTW, wizards could be goaded into taking slates of highly situational spells that turned out to be useless due to disinformation, allowing the sorcerer a chance to shine spamming some generally-useful spell that was OK in the situation, while the wizard cursed himself for not prepping the /ideal/ spell. ...at the extreme fringe of that, there's "but what if the DM isn't doing a good enough job forcing the time pressure" and "well, your fighter as the 'natural party leader' should talk the party into showing some heroic fortitude and bravely pressing on!" Which, actually, sounds kind good - especially after selling the Living World concept all through a long thread - but, which, really, when considered for the perspective of designing for a cooperative game is quite dysfunctional.


That /is/ the right pressure, yes. I should've made it clearer that it wasn't as simple as always applying exactly the /same/ pressure.Yeah, see, you get it.

That's the idea, the problem is that it rests on grinding down the resource-heavy characters, and reducing the overall effectiveness of the party, in order to glorify the low-contributing character.

The bottom line is that kind of balance-by-pacing mechanism both restricts the kinds of stories the game can produce, from the narrative side, and is dysfunctional as a cooperative game, on the system side.
If it weren't so enshrined by decades of tradition, the hobby would regard it like modern doctors revisiting the possibility of using leeches*.











* example chosen advisedly, because, yeah, actually, there are a few legitimate medical uses for leeches!
A slightly unbalanced (keyword, slight) game is actually superior in the context of an rp game that necessarily includes an element of realism than a perfectly balanced game. For a lot of reasons. So actually no. You dont want a perfectly balanced game. You actually want one that is specifically slightly out of balance.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
A slightly unbalanced (keyword, slight) game is actually superior in the context of an rp game that necessarily includes an element of realism than a perfectly balanced game.
There are no perfectly balanced games, so that's moot.
Not that FRPGs necessarily need an element of realism in any sense that would necessarily cause imbalances, either. For instance, magic, not existing in real life, has no bearing on realism, and can be arbitrarily tuned to balance pretty freely, rather than be kept stubbornly Class-Tier 1.
 

There are no perfectly balanced games, so that's moot.
Not that FRPGs necessarily need an element of realism in any sense that would necessarily cause imbalances, either. For instance, magic, not existing in real life, has no bearing on realism, and can be arbitrarily tuned to balance pretty freely, rather than be kept stubbornly Class-Tier 1.
First of all, look at the actual meaning of the word moot. For some reason everyone uses it in the opposite way of its meaning. (Seriously)

Second, fine, a game that approaches balance too closely is inferior to a game that has a decent amount of unbalance. That actually does happen some times. It creates an unrealistic and stagnant game.
 

There are no perfectly balanced games, so that's moot.
Not that FRPGs necessarily need an element of realism in any sense that would necessarily cause imbalances, either. For instance, magic, not existing in real life, has no bearing on realism, and can be arbitrarily tuned to balance pretty freely, rather than be kept stubbornly Class-Tier 1.
Also sure. They dont need said element. It just makes it better. And more realistic. But its nit necessary for something to be better or realistic. People just prefer better and more realistic.
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
First of all, look at the actual meaning of the word moot. For some reason everyone uses it in the opposite way of its meaning. (Seriously)
"having little or no practical relevance" is /a/ definition of moot
(there's several, not one 'actual meaning,' but I think this is the one invoked by the familiar, phrase "moot point" - yeah, 'moot' not 'mute,' :( he's not the only one who's bothered by the way this word gets abused.)

In this case, of course, no relevance.

Second, fine, a game that approaches balance too closely is inferior to a game that has a decent amount of unbalance. That actually does happen some times. It creates an unrealistic and stagnant game.
Now I quibble with definitions, since there's not an official one of "game balance" AFAIK. You may be saying 'balance' but I'm not sure that's what I'd mean when I say it. ;)

What's an example of a very - nigh 'perfectly' - balanced game?
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top