D&D 5E Adjudicating Unusual Actions

[Celebrim]

For the thread in general I think the key thing to keep in mind when adjudicating these kind of actions is whether you want to encourage this sort of swashbuckling or discourage it.

Again, I play 3e and exactly what would work as good math in 5e for something like this I don't have the system mastery to say. I'm inclined to think that disadvantage for longer than one round would be too much though, since disadvantage is a worse penalty than dazzled. One thing you really have to watch is your action economy: that is, "How many actions are you stealing at the cost of a single action?" The answer for my ruling turns out to be, "Less than half of an action.", and it's highly situational, so I'm sure it is balanced.

But what I'm mostly struck by in this thread is how often on the EnWorld boards someone has felt the need to disparage my character and accuse me of being a DM that abuses his players because in there opinion I was the sort of DM that, for example, wouldn't let martial characters have any of the good stuff which I was supposedly unfairly and unthinkingly hording for the spellcasters.

And yet, now I'm being accused of giving away a far too generous martial technique without having thought through the consequences, in a system where most people probably are allowing this monstrosity:

Glitterdust :: d20srd.org

Which by comparison has an area of effect, a range equivalent to a full missile weapon, a higher DC to save against, a longer duration, doesn't have implied restrictions on targets, and has a better secondary effect which allows no save.

If you start asking questions like, "How many actions are you stealing with the action of casting glitterdust?", the answer turns out to be potentially very large indeed, and certainly on average more than one. The same is true of something like a Tanglefoot bag by RAW. So in general, I tend to believe that my rulings are more balanced and thoughtful than the RAW, and that if you were to introduce them into unmodified 3.X that power gamers would find better things to do with their actions most of the time.

 

[Umbran]

There are a couple other issues here as well. The way a large ballista is built, the rope and person would have to fit through the firing mechanism (see image).

Put the person-payload in front of the ballista (off to the side a touch, or lying on the ground, or sitting atop the mechanism, for those pedantic enough to try to tell me the person gets shot if they are standing in front of it). Feed the rope back into the mechanism, and connect it to the bolt. Only a short bit of rope has to go through the mechanism.

When a 5lb object suddenly has to pull a 200lb armored person, it will lose all momentum. End of story.

Well, it doesn't lose all momentum. In our world, the kinetic energy will be conserved. So, say, if a 10 pound bolt is moving at a bit short of a ludicrous 500 mph. The resulting man+bolt will be moving along at a bit more than 100 mph or so - the speed of a fastball pitch. If, of course, the person keeps their limbs when trying to hold on to a rope moving 500 mph.

Mind you, if you pull this trick with a lightly armored halfling, and only a slightly ludicrously overpowered ballista (throwing a huge metal bolt that weighs, say, 50 lbs) then you have an image that might work out.

(That was a joke.)


More seriously, dude - You are talking to people who are okay with games that have swords like this in it:

All the rest is irrelevant.

Exactly. We also have a flying dragon, which suggests its own departures from physics as we know it. What works out in our collaborative myth-making is really dependent on the individual group's tolerance for the wacky. Don't try too hard to structure the experience of others. You will get trampled as they charge by on their way to having fun.

To put it another way - we are talking about a fictional tradition that includes Baron Munchausen crossing back and forth across a battlefield a few times, riding on cannonballs.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Put the person-payload in front of the ballista (off to the side a touch, or lying on the ground, or sitting atop the mechanism, for those pedantic enough to try to tell me the person gets shot if they are standing in front of it). Feed the rope back into the mechanism, and connect it to the bolt. Only a short bit of rope has to go through the mechanism.



Well, it doesn't lose all momentum. In our world, the kinetic energy will be conserved. So, say, if a 10 pound bolt is moving at a bit short of a ludicrous 500 mph. The resulting man+bolt will be moving along at a bit more than 100 mph or so - the speed of a fastball pitch. If, of course, the person keeps their limbs when trying to hold on to a rope moving 500 mph.

Mind you, if you pull this trick with a lightly armored halfling, and only a slightly ludicrously overpowered ballista (throwing a huge metal bolt that weighs, say, 50 lbs) then you have an image that might work out.

(That was a joke.)


More seriously, dude - You are talking to people who are okay with games that have swords like this in it:

View attachment 115108




Exactly. We also have a flying dragon, which suggests its own departures from physics as we know it. What works out in our collaborative myth-making is really dependent on the individual group's tolerance for the wacky. Don't try too hard to structure the experience of others. You will get trampled as they charge by on their way to having fun.

To put it another way - we are talking about a fictional tradition that includes Baron Munchausen crossing back and forth across a battlefield a few times, riding on cannonballs.

Im not ok with it personally. Cloud's sword to my players and i is like garlic to a vampire. It offends our smell and our sight. It hurts us. hisssssssss

 

[Oofta]

Put the person-payload in front of the ballista (off to the side a touch, or lying on the ground, or sitting atop the mechanism, for those pedantic enough to try to tell me the person gets shot if they are standing in front of it). Feed the rope back into the mechanism, and connect it to the bolt. Only a short bit of rope has to go through the mechanism.



Well, it doesn't lose all momentum. In our world, the kinetic energy will be conserved. So, say, if a 10 pound bolt is moving at a bit short of a ludicrous 500 mph. The resulting man+bolt will be moving along at a bit more than 100 mph or so - the speed of a fastball pitch. If, of course, the person keeps their limbs when trying to hold on to a rope moving 500 mph.

Mind you, if you pull this trick with a lightly armored halfling, and only a slightly ludicrously overpowered ballista (throwing a huge metal bolt that weighs, say, 50 lbs) then you have an image that might work out.

(That was a joke.)


More seriously, dude - You are talking to people who are okay with games that have swords like this in it:

View attachment 115108




Exactly. We also have a flying dragon, which suggests its own departures from physics as we know it. What works out in our collaborative myth-making is really dependent on the individual group's tolerance for the wacky. Don't try too hard to structure the experience of others. You will get trampled as they charge by on their way to having fun.

To put it another way - we are talking about a fictional tradition that includes Baron Munchausen crossing back and forth across a battlefield a few times, riding on cannonballs.

Depends on the game. Personally I'm glad we're not playing 3.5 where you could get a halfling wielding a sword bigger than they are.

Besides, it would be easier to just strap the halfling to the ballista bolt. It still won't work, but you'll use less rope.

 

[Umbran]

Im not ok with it personally. Cloud's sword to my players and i is like garlic to a vampire. It offends our smell and our sight. It hurts us. hisssssssss

And that's fine. Each to their own, and all that. The point remains that this is a choice people get to make. If we approach discussions of rules only from the perspective of our own tables, we don't actually end up debating the rules, but the assumptions and choices of the table.

I said upthred that Celebrim was talking genre expectations - there's nothing wrong with him having different expectations and desires for his table. But, since D&D has some of those baked in, it may end up being an awkward fit for things he wants to happen in his game. Not in a gatekeeping sense, but more in a "dude, you may want a screwdriver, rather than a hammer for that task" sense.

 

[Umbran]

Besides, it would be easier to just strap the halfling to the ballista bolt. It still won't work, but you'll use less rope.

Just coat the halfling in tar, put him in a catapult, and let him splat onto the dragon and stick there!

 

[Oofta]

Just coat the halfling in tar, put him in a catapult, and let him splat onto the dragon and stick there!

Well we are delivering halfling on a stick to the dragon, maybe BBQ sauce flavored tar? We need the good yelp reviews after all.

 

[Umbran]

Well we are delivering halfling on a stick to the dragon, maybe BBQ sauce flavored tar? We need the good yelp reviews after all.

Well, my point is that you don't really need the stick at that point. We are talking about a fight, not a county fair, after all...

 

[Oofta]

Well, my point is that you don't really need the stick at that point. We are talking about a fight, not a county fair, after all...

Gotcha. I was still thinking we'd use the ballista. Think of the marketing opportunities and word of mouth opportunities.

Bob, the red dragon "So there I was, about to burn down the city like we do, you know. Then all of a sudden they surprised me with special delivery! Halfling on a stick! I mean I had to flambe it real quick but the tar they added made it char up just like I like it. 10 out of 10, would definitely rampage there again! Of course I still burned the city to ash, but if they ever rebuild I'll be back."

 

[Sacrosanct]

Well, it doesn't lose all momentum. In our world, the kinetic energy will be conserved. So, say, if a 10 pound bolt is moving at a bit short of a ludicrous 500 mph. The resulting man+bolt will be moving along at a bit more than 100 mph or so - the speed of a fastball pitch. If, of course, the person keeps their limbs when trying to hold on to a rope moving 500 mph.

Not sure where you're getting this conclusion. A roman ballista has an average speed per second of 190 ft, which is about 127mph. A 10lb mass projectile suddenly pulling 20x it's weight (not even counting the weight or drag of the rope) will not still retain 20% of it's speed. Take a 1lb ball, tie it to a 20lb weight, and throw the ball. See what happens when the rope gets taut.

More seriously, dude - You are talking to people who are okay with games that have swords like this in it:

No, the people who are OK with swords like that are not the ones who are arguing they have issues with the scenario.

Exactly. We also have a flying dragon, which suggests its own departures from physics as we know it.

I really, really wish people would stop making this argument of fallacy. Just because there are dragons (or magic), does not mean that we should handwave away any and all elements of realism in our games. The game isn't built on that assumption, and it's not how anyone actually plays. I.e., we all rely on realistic comparisons for how things work in our games. Unless there is a specific thing that overrides realism, we all base whatever scenario it happens to be on how it would work in the real world. From physics, to biology, to any other number of things.

DM: You got pushed out into the street, where a charging wagon hit you. You take X amount of damage.
Player: No I don't.
DM: What do you mean?
Player: Well, there are dragons, and people shoot fire from their hands. So the wagon just goes right through me.
DM: Do you have some sort of magic item or spell that allows that?
Player: Nope. But dragons.