D&D 5E Fixing the Fighter: The Zouave

[Oofta]

Did that support and buffs through inspiration, spells etc really help? Did just sitting in a corner and not engaging with the combat significantly contribute to the party's success in the fight much?

Did it seem to be a choice of this specific player, or do you think that any bard would have contributed about the same?

Without the front line fighter, the bard would have been in trouble. That doesn't make the bard useless, it just means he was part of a team and his role was not front line fighter.

Because, once again, D&D is a team sport. All classes fill different niches and have different strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Oofta]

This is not helpful. You're presenting our position as something extreme and exaggerated, so you can knock it down. We should work together to find solutions. This isn't about who is the sharpest arguer.

So, about your argument, no one said they have to be better than the other classes at the other two pillars. We just want them to be better than what they are now.



Can they though? That's the question. Can they turn invisible? Sneak extremely well? have a magical animal that scouts for them? Cure diseases? Conjure food out of thin air? Turn into a raven and go spy?

We are considering backgrounds. Every character has backgrounds, so a fighter character also having a background is sort of a non issue. We are talking about the fighter class.

Again with the exaggerated language! Try nuance, it's quite useful.

You seem to contradict yourself. Fighters are being compared to bards and rogues for skills. But they get expertise, so it's not fair to compare that. You then compare abilities for half a dozen classes.

Can they turn invisible? Yes if they take the Fade Away feat. You can get the equivalent of expertise with Prodigy. Want a familiar? Take ritual caster and get some other handy abilities as well. If you're so bent on casting spells, play an eldritch knight or an arcane archer.

The statements being made is that fighters are useless outside of combat is an exaggeration.

I'm okay with you coming up with alternatives. Feel free. But when was the last time someone posted here with an actual suggestion to improve the fighter? There's one from @Don Durito above, but other than that it's been mostly "fighters do too suck and only newbs think otherwise!"

 

[Tony Vargas]

:Gary Owens voice:
"Also, this just in...

According to normally reliable sources, in the new edition of D&D, out now for over 5 years, the feats once popular in 3rd edition are in fact optional. Details on this stunning development at 11.

...we now return you to you regularly scheduled selection of aging nerds continuing to rant about the same stuff that's been bothering them for the last 40 years..."
:/Gary Owens voice:

 

[Garthanos]

I'm okay with you coming up with alternatives. Feel free.

Really are you ok with it? Well how about those who keep claiming its not needed ummmm move to a thread about anything else? because don't you think that is what causes what you think is noise.

 

[Oofta]

Really are you ok with it? Well how about those who keep claiming its not needed ummmm move to a thread about anything else? because don't you think that is what causes what you think is noise.

Stop telling me I can't hold an opinion and I'll stop posting.

 

[Garthanos]

Stop telling me I can't hold an opinion and I'll stop posting.

That is what you just did. Did you not just imply you were not ok with those saying it was needed because they werent contributing...

 

[Garthanos]

See people saying why its needed actually do contribute to figuring out what might be needed.

 

[Garthanos]

Where as screaming it's perfect the way it is in various different ways not so much. (yay for hyperbole)

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Without the front line fighter, the bard would have been in trouble. That doesn't make the bard useless, it just means he was part of a team and his role was not front line fighter.

That doesn't really answer any of the questions I asked. You have already said that the bard wasn't generally up in melee swinging a sword.
What I was asking was how well the bard performed as a contributor to the party's success in combat. Because of their support, was the party as effective as the same party with just an extra fighter or other front-liner wold have been, or could the bard's general contribution to whether the party wins a fight be replicated by a couple of bedrolls in a fancy waistcoat?
And further to that question, do you think that a more engaged bard might have contributed more, or is this an issue with the bard class in general?

Because, once again, D&D is a team sport. All classes fill different niches and have different strengths and weaknesses.

Precisely. The bard might not have personally done as much damage as the wizard, or killed as many giants as the fighter, but I've generally found that having a bard in the team means the party as a whole can survive and be victorious in combats that would have defeated a party without them.

 

[Oofta]

That doesn't really answer any of the questions I asked. You have already said that the bard wasn't generally up in melee swinging a sword.
What I was asking was how well the bard performed as a contributor to the party's success in combat. Because of their support, was the party as effective as the same party with just an extra fighter or other front-liner wold have been, or could the bard's general contribution to whether the party wins a fight be replicated by a couple of bedrolls in a fancy waistcoat?
And further to that question, do you think that a more engaged bard might have contributed more, or is this an issue with the bard class in general?

Precisely. The bard might not have personally done as much damage as the wizard, or killed as many giants as the fighter, but I've generally found that having a bard in the team means the party as a whole can survive and be victorious in combats that would have defeated a party without them.

Honestly I think it's impossible to say if the party would have been better or worse off with another fighter. The bard was an important part of the team, both in and out of combat. Just like the fighter.

Just like the fighter, their contribution was different. Neither better nor worse really, just different in a way that is difficult to quantify.