D&D 5E UA Spell Versatility: A deeper dive

[Salthorae]

I agree with @ad_hoc & @dnd4vr here @Ashrym

It says "enhances Spellcasting", and then it says "replace one spell you learned from this Spellcasting feature". Spell Versatility doesn't have a "spellcasting feature" outside of the base "Spellcasting" for these classes.

Right now RAW with 2 weeks of downtime a Sorcerer could swap out every single spell known at 17th level. That is my biggest problem with it, it completely changes the nature of what a Sorcerer is in that you can be a completely different sorcerer from 1 week to the next.

obviously based on the back and forth in the other thread there are people for whom the ability to be a completely different sorcerer over time is appealing. But it's not to me.

 

[ad_hoc]

No. It says "this feature" while using the spell versatility feature. 5e uses specific language and it would have said "bard spell you know" or which ever class if that were the case.

EDIT: it's not one use either. It's one spell known that gets swapped on a long rest, like a floater.

Yes, because it is creating an addition to the feature.

It is an additionally paragraph in the spellcasting feature of the class.

Your interpretation would actually do absolutely nothing as the class doesn't actually have any learned spells from the 'spell versatility' feature.

Here it is again. Read it with your interpretation. It does nothing.

"Spell Versatility 1st-level bard feature (enhances Spellcasting)Whenever you finish a long rest, you can replace one spell you learned from this Spellcasting feature with another spell from the bard spell list. The new spell must be the same level as the spell you replace. "

 

[Ashrym]

I agree with @ad_hoc & @dnd4vr here @Ashrym

It says "enhances Spellcasting", and then it says "replace one spell you learned from this Spellcasting feature". Spell Versatility doesn't have a "spellcasting feature" outside of the base "Spellcasting" for these classes.

Right now RAW with 2 weeks of downtime a Sorcerer could swap out every single spell known at 17th level. That is my biggest problem with it, it completely changes the nature of what a Sorcerer is in that you can be a completely different sorcerer from 1 week to the next.

obviously based on the back and forth in the other thread there are people for whom the ability to be a completely different sorcerer over time is appealing. But it's not to me.

Yes, because it is creating an addition to the feature.

It is an additionally paragraph in the spellcasting feature of the class.

Your interpretation would actually do absolutely nothing as the class doesn't actually have any learned spells from the 'spell versatility' feature.

Here it is again. Read it with your interpretation. It does nothing.

"Spell Versatility 1st-level bard feature (enhances Spellcasting)Whenever you finish a long rest, you can replace one spell you learned from this Spellcasting feature with another spell from the bard spell list. The new spell must be the same level as the spell you replace. "

You can dispute on intent but that's not RAW here.

If a character has 8 spells known, 7 of them would never change. The only one that ever changes is the one selected using spell versatility under that RAW. If you swap healing word for cure wound then you can only swap out cure wounds. Swapping out cure wounds for heroism and you can only swap out heroism because those are the spells "learned from this spellcasting feature".

 

[FireLance]

You can dispute on intent but that's not RAW here.

If a character has 8 spells known, 7 of them would never change. The only one that ever changes is the one selected using spell versatility under that RAW. If you swap healing word for cure wound then you can only swap out cure wounds. Swapping out cure wounds for heroism and you can only swap out heroism because those are the spells "learned from this spellcasting feature".

"Spellcasting" is capitalized, which means it refers to the sorcerer's Spellcasting feature, and the "Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher" section in particular, quoted in full (but unformatted) from the SRD as follows:

Spellcasting
An event in your past, or in the life of a parent or ancestor, left an indelible mark on you, infusing you with arcane magic. This font of magic, whatever its origin, fuels your spells.

Cantrips
At 1st level, you know four cantrips of your choice from the sorcerer spell list. You learn additional sorcerer cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Sorcerer table.

Spell Slots
The Sorcerer table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these sorcerer spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.
For example, if you know the 1st-level spell burning hands and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast burning hands using either slot.

Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher
You know two 1st-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer spell list.
The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 3rd level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.
Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

Spellcasting Ability
Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your sorcerer spells, since the power of your magic relies on your ability to project your will into the world. You use your Charisma whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Charisma modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a sorcerer spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier
Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier

Spellcasting Focus
You can use an arcane focus as a spellcasting focus for your sorcerer spells.

 

[Ashrym]

"Spellcasting" is capitalized, which means it refers to the sorcerer's Spellcasting feature, quoted in full (but unformatted) from the SRD as follows:

Only if by "this feature" the text refers to a different feature that's not "this feature".

Spell versatility is a 1st-level feature. It's reaching to make assumptions that "this" refers to anything else.

The other thing I would point out is that the spell selected has to match the level replaced. As a 1st level feature that's going to lock it into cantrips or 1st-level spells as well.






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[FireLance]

Only if by "this feature" the text refers to a different feature that's not "this feature".

Spell versatility is a 1st-level feature. It's reaching to make assumptions that "this" refers to anything else.

Except that it's not "this feature", it's "this Spellcasting feature", which means it's referring to Spellcasting, not Spell Versatility, which if it ever sees print in an official product, would likely be a subsection of Spellcasting, like "Cantrips", "Spell Slots", and "Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher".

 

[Bacon Bits]

I had a lot of the posts in the other thread about this, so while I'll follow along, I doubt I'll chime in much.

The only thing I'd like to add here is that the proposed option would not work with Magical Secrets because it explicitly states that you can change out spells gained through the Spellcasting (or Pact Magic) feature.

Magical Secrets is a different feature.

Even if we ignore the "Spellcasting feature" clause, Magical Secrets still doesn't have a particularly beneficial interaction with Magical Secrets because it requires the new spell to be on the Bard's spell list.

Bard Spell Versatility says:

Whenever you finish a long rest, you can replace one spell you learned from this Spellcasting feature with another spell from the bard spell list. The new spell must be the same level as the spell you replace.

Magical Secrets says:

1. Choose two spells from any classes.
2. Those spells are now Bard spells for you. (This is necessary because it's what determines which ability to use for saves and spell attacks.)
3. Those spells are now known spells for you.

At best, Bard Spell Versatility only lets you mess with step 3.

Even if we say that the Bard can chose to exchange spells learned through Magical Secrets, the new spell must come from the Bard spell list. Even if the spell is no longer a spell known, spells added to the Magical Secrets spell list would remain on your Bard spell list.

A Bard could choose to lose fireball in exchange for hypnotic pattern. Fireball would remain on that Bard's spell list even though it was no longer a known spell because Magical Secrets made it a Bard spell and Spell Versatility doesn't affect that. In any event, the Bard couldn't exchange fireball or hypnotic pattern for aura of vitality because that's not on the Bard's spell list.

 

[Salthorae]

A Bard could choose to lose fireball in exchange for hypnotic pattern. Fireball would remain on that Bard's spell list even though it was no longer a known spell because Magical Secrets made it a Bard spell and Spell Versatility doesn't affect that. In any event, the Bard couldn't exchange fireball or hypnotic pattern for aura of vitality because that's not on the Bard's spell list.

Right. I agree with you.

I think I was trying to head off people who would interpret it as allowing you to re-use your magical secrets feature to grab any spell on a LR, though in my desire to be concise, I wasn't as clear as you.

 

[FireLance]

I actually think it would be quite flavorful for the various Spell Versatility options to have minor differences, such as the warlock needing to make an offering of 20 gp per level of the spell to persuade his patron to grant him different spells.

For the sorcerer, I think it may suit the flavor of the class more if it was a new Metamagic option, since it expands on the sorcerer's ability to modify spells on the fly. Something like the following:

Any Spell
You can use sorcery points to cast a sorcerer spell you do not know. The cost to cast a spell in this manner is as follows (about one and a half times the cost to create a spell slot, progression smoothened):

Spell Level	Sorcery Point Cost
Cantrip	1
1st	3
2nd	5
3rd	7
4th	9
5th	11

 

[Ashrym]

Except that it's not "this feature", it's "this Spellcasting feature", which means it's referring to Spellcasting, not Spell Versatility, which if it ever sees print in an official product, would likely be a subsection of Spellcasting, like "Cantrips", "Spell Slots", and "Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher".

That's because this feature is a spell casting feature. When I say a person can argue intent it leaves room for what's intended. When someone is arguing that "this spellcasting feature" isn't referring to this feature I have to disagree.

I also find it more plausible that WotC's intent was a small benefit for versatility and not the ability to rewrite one's entire spell list during downtime.

I pointed out the wording. My recommendation is play it how you want and give back feedback on the survey expressing concern over the wording if you feel my interpretation is not correct.