D&D 3E/3.5 3E and the Feel of D&D

For 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons, the big picture was to return the game to its roots, reversing the direction that 2nd Edition had taken in making the game more generic. The plan was to strongly support the idea that the characters were D&D characters in a D&D world. We emphasized adventuring and in particular dungeoneering, both with the rules and with the adventure path modules. We...

For 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons, the big picture was to return the game to its roots, reversing the direction that 2nd Edition had taken in making the game more generic. The plan was to strongly support the idea that the characters were D&D characters in a D&D world. We emphasized adventuring and in particular dungeoneering, both with the rules and with the adventure path modules. We intentionally brought players back to a shared experience after 2E had sent them off in different directions.

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To keep the focus on adventuring, we eliminated several elements from 2E that, we thought, tended to take players off course. In particular, we removed evil PCs, individual XP awards, strongholds, and the class name “thief.”

Thieves were renamed “rogues” to take the emphasis off of them going off on their own to steal random items from NPCs. Doing so usually amounted to stealing spotlight time and the DM’s attention away from the other players. If thieves stole from other PCs in order to be “in character,” that was even worse.

Starting in original D&D, top-level fighters and clerics could build strongholds, and we dropped that. If you have had fun playing your character as an adventurer for level after level, why would you suddenly want to take on non-adventuring duties at 9th level? These strongholds were styled as benefits, so if you didn’t start one, you were losing a bonus that you’d apparently earned. Running a stronghold was also an individual activity, not something a party did. Worse, if players wanted their characters to run strongholds for fun, why force them to adventure until they reached 9th level first? In my personal 3E campaign, I gave the party the option to rule from a fort on the frontier when the characters were 6th level, and they took it. It was a project that they undertook as a party, like the rest of their adventuring careers.

We got rid of individual XP awards, which rewarded different classes for doing different things. Fighters got bonus experience for killing monsters, for example, and thieves got experience for stealing things. It looked good on paper, but it rewarded characters for pursuing different goals. We were trying to get players to pursue the same goals, especially those that involved kicking open doors and fighting what was on the other side.

Evil characters in D&D can be traced back to Chainmail, a miniatures game in which playing an evil army was routine. Having good and evil characters together in a party led to problems and sometimes hard feelings. In a lunchtime 2E campaign at Wizards, an evil character sold fake magic items to other characters; the players who got scammed were not amused. During a playtest of 3E, one of the designers secretly created an evil character who, at the end of the session, turned on the rest of us. It was a test of sorts, and the result of the test was that evil characters didn’t make the experience better. 3E established the expectation that PCs would be neutral or good, one of the rare instances of us narrowing the players’ options instead of expanding them.

Personally, one part of the process I enjoyed was describing the world of D&D in its own terms, rather than referring to real-world history and mythology. When writing roleplaying games, I enjoy helping the player get immersed in the setting, and I always found these references to the real world to be distractions. In the Player’s Handbook, the text and art focused the readers’ imaginations on the D&D experiences, starting with an in-world paragraph to introduce each chapter.

In 2nd Ed, the rules referred to history and to historical legends to describe the game, such as referring to Merlin to explain what a wizard was or to Hiawatha as an archetype for a fighter. But by the time we were working on 3rd Ed, D&D had had such a big impact on fantasy that we basically used D&D as its own source. For example, 2E took monks out of the Player’s Handbook, in part because martial artist monks have no real place in medieval fantasy. We put them back in because monks sure have a place in D&D fantasy. The same goes for gnomes. The 3E gnome is there because the gnome was well-established in D&D lore, not in order to represent real-world mythology.

We also emphasized adventuring by creating a standard or “iconic” adventurer for each class. In the rule examples, in the illustrations, and in the in-world prose, we referred to these adventurers, especially Tordek (dwarf fighter), Mialee (elf wizard), Jozan (human cleric), and Lidda (halfling rogue). While AD&D used proper names to identify supremely powerful wizards, such as Bigby of the spell Bigby’s crushing hand, we used proper names to keep the attention on adventurers, even down to a typical 1st-level fighter.

For the art in 3E, we took pains to have it seem to illustrate not fantasy characters in general but D&D adventurers in particular. For one thing, lots of them wore backpacks. For the iconic characters, we wrote up the sort of gear that a 1st-level character might start with, and the illustrations showed them with that gear. The illustrations in the 2E Player’s Handbook feature lots of human fighters, human wizards, and castles. Those images reflect standard fantasy tropes, while the art in 3E reflects what you see in your mind’s eye when you play D&D.

Descriptions of weapons in 2E referred to historical precedents, such as whether a weapon was use in the European Renaissance or in Egypt. With almost 20 different polearms, the weapon list reflected soldiers on a medieval battlefield more than a heterogenous party of adventurers delving into a dungeon. We dropped the historical references, such as the Lucerne hammer, and gave dwarves the dwarven warax. And if the dwarven warax isn’t cool enough, how would you like a double sword or maybe a spiked chain?

The gods in 2E were generic, such as the god of strength. We pulled in the Greyhawk deities so we could use proper names and specific holy symbols that were part of the D&D heritage. We knew that plenty of Dungeon Masters would create their own worlds and deities, as I did for my home campaign, but the Greyhawk deities made the game feel more connected to its own roots. They also helped us give players a unified starting point, which was part of Ryan Dancey’s plan to bring the D&D audience back to a shared experience.

Fans were enthusiastic about the way 3E validated adventuring, the core experience that D&D does best and that appeals most broadly. We were fortunate that by 2000 D&D had such a strong legacy that it could stand on its own without reference to Earth history or mythology. One reason that fans were willing to accept sweeping changes to the rules was that 3E felt more like D&D than 2nd Edition had. Sometimes I wonder what 4E could have accomplished if it had likewise tried to reinforce the D&D experience rather than trying to redesign it.
 

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Jonathan Tweet

Jonathan Tweet

D&D 3E, Over the Edge, Everway, Ars Magica, Omega World, Grandmother Fish

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Ok then...just roll your to hit and add the AC of the opponent; if it's 20+, you hit. Same thing. In fact, the OSR BECMI clone "Dark Dungeons" uses this method. You roll a d20, and get a 14. Lets say you have +3 to hit. If you don't know the AC and the DM doesn't want to tell you, you just announce "17". The DM adds the monsters AC to that; if it's 20+, the DM describes the hit.
This si exactly how I've done it forever, except the magic number is 21 rather than 20. Player rolls and adds any bonuses (and-or subtracts any penalties) and gives me a number. I add the defender's AC to this, apply any bonuses or penalties the player/PC doesn't know about, and if the end result is 21 or higher, under normal circumstances* it's a hit.

Exceptions: a natural '20' always hits even if the various other numbers can't get it to 21; and a natural '1' always misses even if the various other numbers can get it to the stratosphere. :)

* - non-normal circumstances might include situations where a creature can only be hit by a magic weapon and the PC is swinging a non-magic one; here even a '20' won't help... BONK!
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
That’s irrelevant really. It’s not a matter of opinion.
Correct. The incredible simplicity of the math is not a matter of opinion. However, it is relevant. The change wasn't needed in the slightest. Making an incredibly easy mechanic a hair easier was a waste of resources.

With all that happens in a typical D&D game, if you are experiencing cognitive overload, it wasn't 5+3 that did it to you.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
Good grief, how old are you? I'm 47 and my brother is 55. We were both using calculators in high school math. Heck, we had scientific calculators when I was in high school in the 80's. It hasn't been since the Baby Boomers that people weren't using calculators in high school math classes.
I'm in that age range too. The first scientific calculator I got was when I was about 15, although I'm sure I had a simple calculator before that. However, the math classes didn't accept answers that didn't have full work shown.

I taught a good bit of university mathematics as a grad student (and still teach graduate statistics). One pitfall students would often have is over-relying on their calculators. This hit in two main ways. One would be to take the calculator's output literally and fail to reality check it, which requires some level of solid number sense that is developed by, you guessed it, doing hand calculations. The other would be to fail to show sufficient work. I still assign some hand calculation problems, not to make the numbers difficult, but so students can get a feel for what the computer is going to do.

Of course, as a university instructor I remain horrified by the misunderstandings that seem baked into the K12 math curriculum, at least in the USA.

I do respect that many people aren't good at quick mental arithmetic, so I'm not defending THAC0, but it needs to be understood in the context of the time. THAC0 was fine for people who were adept at arithmetic (I refuse to call arithmetic math) but one thing it did provide was a way to look things up in the table, which, at the time, was considered totally normal. In 1E the to hit tables were in the DMG and were deemed "secret" at some point, although character sheets usually had each character's to hit numbers on them. So one was always expected to revert to the table.

In terms of lots of two digit mental arithmetic, it's really, really hard to beat 3E, though. However, it rarely involved negation the way THAC0 did, but a medium to high level character, especially a fighter with a feat like Rapid Shot or Power Attack, could be expected to be managing many rolls with shifting bonuses in a combat round. We used to call it "fighter math" (there's that word again) and it was painful to watch someone who wasn't good at all that calculation try to play such a character.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
This si exactly how I've done it forever, except the magic number is 21 rather than 20. Player rolls and adds any bonuses (and-or subtracts any penalties) and gives me a number. I add the defender's AC to this, apply any bonuses or penalties the player/PC doesn't know about, and if the end result is 21 or higher, under normal circumstances* it's a hit.

We did this for 1e and 2e as well. If my THACO was 13 and I rolled a total of 15, I would announce, "I hit AC -2" and let the DM tell me if I hit or not.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
Correct. The incredible simplicity of the math is not a matter of opinion. However, it is relevant. The change wasn't needed in the slightest. Making an incredibly easy mechanic a hair easier was a waste of resources.

With all that happens in a typical D&D game, if you are experiencing cognitive overload, it wasn't 5+3 that did it to you.
I will say, as someone who lived through that change, that going all goes up wasn't a bad shift. I know the 2E designers had intended to flip to an always roll high system but had been vetoed for reasons of backwards compatibility.

There are folks who've studied the cognitive load of addition versus subtraction and the latter is definitely harder, so I'm not remotely surprised that D20 system's basic numbers are viewed as easier. They are. I think 3E lost control of the numbers in a different way, though by a massive proliferation of modifiers.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Correct. The incredible simplicity of the math is not a matter of opinion. However, it is relevant. The change wasn't needed in the slightest. Making an incredibly easy mechanic a hair easier was a waste of resources.

Making the switch from dealing with negative numbers and THAC0 and shifting everything to ascending ACs wasn't really an insignificant change when it comes to usability of the game. Lots of people struggle with negative numbers when they have to encounter them. If they had been working with that sort of math all week, then I doubt THAC0 would have been as painful as it was - but the problem is, most adults weren't. A once/week D&D game isn't enough to keep that math fresh and easy.

And then there's the whole issue of the lower=better AC concept anyway that was a lot more complex than it needed to be. "So, with my +1 chainmail, I actually subtract that bonus from AC? But I add the modifier from the Dex table?

Yeah, improving usability of the game? NOT a waste of resources.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I will say, as someone who lived through that change, that going all goes up wasn't a bad shift. I know the 2E designers had intended to flip to an always roll high system but had been vetoed for reasons of backwards compatibility.

There are folks who've studied the cognitive load of addition versus subtraction and the latter is definitely harder, so I'm not remotely surprised that D20 system's basic numbers are viewed as easier. They are. I think 3E lost control of the numbers in a different way, though by a massive proliferation of modifiers.
Yeah. I'm not saying it was a bad change. I'm saying it was an unnecessary change. It's definitely a bit easier. And yes, the math in 3e was far more fiddly with all the bonuses and penalties flying around. If 5+3 would cause cognitive overload in 2e, then 5 + 4 + 2+ 1 - 2 + 4 -2 would shut that person down completely.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
Yeah. I'm not saying it was a bad change. I'm saying it was an unnecessary change. It's definitely a bit easier. And yes, the math in 3e was far more fiddly with all the bonuses and penalties flying around. If 5+3 would cause cognitive overload in 2e, then 5 + 4 + 2+ 1 - 2 + 4 -2 would shut that person down completely.

I think it was a necessary change if you were getting rid of lookup tables. The fact that 3E went nuts with modifiers is a separate issue and they shouldn't be conflated.

The assumption in the 1E days was that you were not doing any calculation yourself. You were simply looking up number in tables, which is, obviously, not very difficult. 2E maintained this to some degree, but the community was going in the direction of computing numbers themselves.

The problem is that 1E didn't actually explain the underlying arithmetic that was behind the tables. Partly this was due to the fact that there often wasn't an actual pattern that maintained itself amenable to simple arithmetic. For example, the 1E to hit tables had long flat spots in them in places at the top of the die. I can understand the intent of the flat spot (it is explained in the section on attacks) but it breaks the use of a simple rule. However, it cannot be understated that the authors were old wargamers, who were very comfortable with table lookup and were pretty simulationist. The deviations from pattern were typically there to avoid things like automatic hits on a modified 20.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I think it was a necessary change if you were getting rid of lookup tables. The fact that 3E went nuts with modifiers is a separate issue and they shouldn't be conflated.

The assumption in the 1E days was that you were not doing any calculation yourself. You were simply looking up number in tables, which is, obviously, not very difficult. 2E maintained this to some degree, but the community was going in the direction of computing numbers themselves.

The problem is that 1E didn't actually explain the underlying arithmetic that was behind the tables. Partly this was due to the fact that there often wasn't an actual pattern that maintained itself amenable to simple arithmetic. For example, the 1E to hit tables had long flat spots in them in places at the top of the die. I can understand the intent of the flat spot (it is explained in the section on attacks) but it breaks the use of a simple rule. However, it cannot be understated that the authors were old wargamers, who were very comfortable with table lookup and were pretty simulationist. The deviations from pattern were typically there to avoid things like automatic hits on a modified 20.
For 1e, sure. 2e didn't need a table for figuring out of if you hit something, though.

THAC0 had the same progression that 3e did. Fighters improved by 1 per level. Clerics went improved by the same progression in 3e. All you needed to know what the single number that hit AC 0, just like in 3e you needed your base attack bonus. It wasn't complicated and didn't require the use of a table.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
For 1e, sure. 2e didn't need a table for figuring out of if you hit something, though.

THAC0 had the same progression that 3e did. Fighters improved by 1 per level. Clerics went improved by the same progression in 3e. All you needed to know what the single number that hit AC 0, just like in 3e you needed your base attack bonus. It wasn't complicated and didn't require the use of a table.
I agree with you, but will note that the 2E DMG still has to hit tables in it and they never really tell you what the progressions are exactly. ;)

THAC0 and AC going down from 10 is unquestionably harder to manage than ACs going up from 10 as it requires negation. ACs going down doesn't align with most people's intuitive number sense. Many of us can learn to work past it, but one thing I will say is that after not running 2E for quite a while, I will gak at it and, as I said, I've taught university level mathematics. (I also run into the problem that I've played and run so many different versions of D&D I can't keep them all straight, but that's a separate issue.)
 

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