D&D 5E Modifying/Expanding Ritual Casting

[iserith]

I've evaluating this in the framework of a normal campaign I'd be in. If you have some specific goals you are trying to achieve I'd love to hear them so I can talk more in that context. My comments may seem negative, but I don't know what you are looking to get out of this at your table so my default point of view may not match what you are aiming for.

Agreed, it's difficult or impossible to evaluate a house rule's efficacy without knowing the goals for the house rule and at least some context of the game in which it is played. As far as I can tell from the house rule above, it's something like "make rituals take longer" and "have access to fewer rituals per day with an expanded spell list." Okay. To what end? What problem is this trying to solve or what play experience is it meant to create?

 

[Bacon Bits]

I honestly don't see much functional difference between 10 minutes and 90 minutes extra to cast. There are very few situations where the PCs are going to have 10 minutes extra available to cast a spell, but 90 minutes extra is going to be onerous. Furthermore, the rest of the party will often just short rest once you get to 30 or 40 minutes to cast the spell, so it's not really a big hindrance at all. Unless all your adventures have time pressure, I don't really see the point.

Think of it this way. There were situations in previous editions where the extra time required to stop, long rest, prepare the desired spell, cast it, and sometimes even long rest, and prepare the original spell was a completely reasonable use of in-game time. For table time it just takes seconds. It's really not the amount of in-game time that matters. The only thing that's important is that it's long enough that it's never useful in combat to cast a ritual. That's why it's 10 minutes. 600 rounds is a lot. As a result, I don't think extending the time is really a meaningful new limitation.

Even a 1/day limitation for most rituals isn't going to be meaningful unless that spell's specific purpose is making day-to-day adventuring and living easier (e.g., Leomund's tiny hut). Similarly, requiring players to select 1 or 2 spells (or ability mod or prof bonus number of spells) isn't really necessary. Wizards already have to have them in their spellbook, and other classes already have to prepare them to cast them as a ritual. Might as well just make those spells not be rituals if they're a problem.

If we look at other possible mechanics, I don't think adding die rolls or skill checks to cast spells as rituals is particularly worthwhile, either, unless you want to start importing complications mechanics from Modiphius 2d20 (where casting any spell is dangerous). Similarly, adding expensive material components just means that -- after your melee characters get fully equipped -- your spellcasters will have a gold sink for the party. It's additional bookkeeping and planning, potentially, but that's all. I suppose it also offers a contrivance to prevent certain spells from being cast (i.e., "bats are extinct so you can't cast fireball") but if you're going to ban a spell or make it not a ritual, just do that instead.

Ultimately, I don't know what your goal is with your rules change. You don't state any intended goal for modifying the ritual rules at all so it's difficult to judge whether or not the change will be successful. If it's change for change's sake, then, okay, they're different rules. However, I'm not sure what desired outcome or effect you're trying to have with the change. What is your goal?

 

[tetrasodium]

Agreed, it's difficult or impossible to evaluate a house rule's efficacy without knowing the goals for the house rule and at least some context of the game in which it is played. As far as I can tell from the house rule above, it's something like "make rituals take longer" and "have access to fewer rituals per day with an expanded spell list." Okay. To what end? What problem is this trying to solve or what play experience is it meant to create?

Since it was discussed in another thread, I'm going to say that likely to expand on the various forms of "ritual caster" as something much more than mostly detect magic, identify, comprehend languages, & tiny hut. Personally I disagree with some of the spell choices for inclusion (and would add the cure wounds/mass cure wounds spells) because the spells themselves don't sound like they are being altered, but all things considered I think it will clearly show the OP what he likes & what he doesn't so he can make more informed choices down the line as he tweaks it to his liking

I honestly don't see much functional difference between 10 minutes and 90 minutes extra to cast. There are very few situations where the PCs are going to have 10 minutes extra available to cast a spell, but 90 minutes extra is going to be onerous. Furthermore, the rest of the party will often just short rest once you get to 30 or 40 minutes to cast the spell, so it's not really a big hindrance at all. Unless all your adventures have time pressure, I don't really see the point.

Think of it this way. There were situations in previous editions where the extra time required to stop, long rest, prepare the desired spell, cast it, and sometimes even long rest, and prepare the original spell was a completely reasonable use of in-game time. For table time it just takes seconds. It's really not the amount of in-game time that matters. The only thing that's important is that it's long enough that it's never useful in combat to cast a ritual. That's why it's 10 minutes. 600 rounds is a lot. As a result, I don't think extending the time is really a meaningful new limitation.

Even a 1/day limitation for most rituals isn't going to be meaningful unless that spell's specific purpose is making day-to-day adventuring and living easier (e.g., Leomund's tiny hut). Similarly, requiring players to select 1 or 2 spells (or ability mod or prof bonus number of spells) isn't really necessary. Wizards already have to have them in their spellbook, and other classes already have to prepare them to cast them as a ritual. Might as well just make those spells not be rituals if they're a problem.

If we look at other possible mechanics, I don't think adding die rolls or skill checks to cast spells as rituals is particularly worthwhile, either, unless you want to start importing complications mechanics from Modiphius 2d20 (where casting any spell is dangerous). Similarly, adding expensive material components just means that -- after your melee characters get fully equipped -- your spellcasters will have a gold sink for the party. It's additional bookkeeping and planning, potentially, but that's all. I suppose it also offers a contrivance to prevent certain spells from being cast (i.e., "bats are extinct so you can't cast fireball") but if you're going to ban a spell or make it not a ritual, just do that instead.

Ultimately, I don't know what your goal is with your rules change. You don't state any intended goal for modifying the ritual rules at all so it's difficult to judge whether or not the change will be successful. If it's change for change's sake, then, okay, they're different rules. However, I'm not sure what desired outcome or effect you're trying to have with the change. What is your goal?

That's why I do it 1 hr/spell level & suggested it earlier sure ritual spells are super available, but spell slots are reserved for making incredible things happen now.

 

[Stormonu]

Since it’s been asked, the reason I am considering this is a) the group’s wizard is just starting to understand how this feature works but is frustrated (as I am) of what spells qualify, b) the group cleric (my wife) is adverse to casting ANY of her spells for fear of not having healing spells available when the party needs them and c) I think it’s completely dumb that you HAVE to waste a spell slot on Mage Armor or Find Familiar when they make so much more sense as rituals*.

<edit: Oh, and there’s an upcoming adventure that will require the party to be equipped with potions of Water Breathing. Rather than have the NPCs just show up with a solution for the party, I’d like to empower them to set themselves up by using Water Breathing as a ritual by themselves - more self-empowerment>

* And don’t get me started on 5E’s version of Shield and True Strike, just ....grrrr....

 

[Mort]

First, a question. Do you allow feats? If so, ritual caster is about to become very, very, popular.

Since it’s been asked, the reason I am considering this is a) the group’s wizard is just starting to understand how this feature works but is frustrated (as I am) of what spells qualify, b) the group cleric (my wife) is adverse to casting ANY of her spells for fear of not having healing spells available when the party needs them

I'm in favor off expanding rituals, but you have to take resource management into account.

If fly is a ritual, for example, it suddenly becomes really hard to challenge a party with any kind of terrain hazards.

and c) I think it’s completely dumb that you HAVE to waste a spell slot on Mage Armor or Find Familiar when they make so much more sense as rituals*.

Mage armor as a ritual is a near no brainer, though you introduce some limits. I like the spell casters to make hard choices, they get so many options.

Find familiar is already a ritual.

<edit: Oh, and there’s an upcoming adventure that will require the party to be equipped with potions of Water Breathing. Rather than have the NPCs just show up with a solution for the party, I’d like to empower them to set themselves up by using Water Breathing as a ritual by themselves - more self-empowerment>

Water breathing is already a ritual, am I missing something?

* And don’t get me started on 5E’s version of Shield and True Strike, just ....grrrr....

Bi confused:

Shield is an excellent spell that works at all tiers of play.

True strike is near useless except in some very specific circumstances.

Neither, as written, make any sense as rituals.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Since it’s been asked, the reason I am considering this is a) the group’s wizard is just starting to understand how this feature works but is frustrated (as I am) of what spells qualify, c) I think it’s completely dumb that you HAVE to waste a spell slot on Mage Armor or Find Familiar when they make so much more sense as rituals*.

I'm putting these together because I think they're the same issue.

Mage armor intentionally costs a spell slot every day. If it was a ritual, the Wizards could just cast it from their spellbook at it would have no cost at all. Other classes, like Draconic Sorcerers, get AC 13 + Dex mod as a class feature or can wear armor. Wizards are supposed to be limited by having to cast it every day. You might make a rule that the spell is a ritual, but in that case I would still require the player to prepare it every day unlike most wizard rituals.

Find familiar is already a ritual.

b) the group cleric (my wife) is adverse to casting ANY of her spells for fear of not having healing spells available when the party needs them and

This is the central conflict of playing a cleric or druid. Again, this is part of the game's design. It's supposed to be a difficult decision. You've got to play for awhile to know when you should burn spells to heal vs buff, or when you should short rest to recover. Short rest really is very effective.

I would consider making short rests to heal more attractive by making all hit dice recover from a long rest instead of only half. That should significantly reduce the tension for healing. Alternately, you might grant the character the Healer feat if you find your PCs actually struggling.

<edit: Oh, and there’s an upcoming adventure that will require the party to be equipped with potions of Water Breathing. Rather than have the NPCs just show up with a solution for the party, I’d like to empower them to set themselves up by using Water Breathing as a ritual by themselves - more self-empowerment>

Water breathing is a ritual already, too. The wizard can take it when they reach 5th level, or you might give them access to (or let them buy) a scroll or spellbook with water breathing in it already that they can copy.

 

[Esker]

I think it’s completely dumb that you HAVE to waste a spell slot on Mage Armor or Find Familiar when they make so much more sense as rituals*.

Find Familiar is a ritual already, as is Water Breathing...

Some of the things you've added I like a lot as rituals: Disguise Self, Longstrider, Arcane Lock, Darkvision, Find Traps, Locate X, Rope Trick, See Invisibility, Zone of Truth, Clairvoyance, Magic Circle, Nondetection, Sending, Speak With Dead, Tongues... just to name the 1st-3rd level ones that stood out to me.

In the case of cleric-only spells, I don't think you make anything overpowered if you just make these rituals and don't change any of the rules about how ritual casting works, since they still have to prepare those spells, but you give them a greater incentive to prepare more utility spells like these. In the case of spells the wizard has access to, there might be some of these that would need additional restrictions if they were rituals: Darkvision, for example, might need the added restriction that if you cast it again as a ritual, the first casting ends, so that you don't just remove the racial benefit of innate darkvision entirely any time a wizard manages to learn that spell and just casts it three or four times at the start of every adventuring day to cover the whole party. Some are already limited by having consumed material components (Arcane Lock, Magic Circle, Nondetection, for example).

Some of the things you listed really don't make a lot of sense as rituals. Charm Person? How are you ever going to be able to sit there casting this ritual with your target there? Any really any of the spells with a one minute duration are unlikely to be much use as rituals, especially those that affect an enemy.

And then there are some on this list that I think legitimately become overpowered as rituals: any of the Conjure X spells, Regenerate, Foresight (I think that one is OP even with the 1/day restriction and the attunement limits you're proposing; it's already a good use for a 9th level slot, but you'd be making it so that any wizard would be nuts not to take it and just cast it every day while keeping their spell slot open for something which is also incredibly powerful). Mind Blank I'd put in that category too, though not as bad.

One possible concern one might have with just giving the spells I listed the ritual tag without making other changes is stacking non-concentration buffs, like See Invisibility, Darkvision and Longstrider. A possible way around this without a wholesale overhaul of how ritual casting works would be to borrow from the concentration mechanic and say that you can only have the effects of one ritual spell active at a time.

But apart from that, it seems to me that just adding the ritual tag to a more tightly curated list of spells would be a nice incentive to pick up utility options, especially if paired with the new UA option on Spell Versatility for Sorcerers, Bards and Warlocks, since it seems to me like the only class for whom this is a significant boost, as opposed to a nudge toward picking options you wouldn't otherwise pick, is the Wizard. And even then, the DM has full control over which spells they can add to their book without using their level-up picks.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Since it’s been asked, the reason I am considering this is a) the group’s wizard is just starting to understand how this feature works but is frustrated (as I am) of what spells qualify, b) the group cleric (my wife) is adverse to casting ANY of her spells for fear of not having healing spells available when the party needs them and c) I think it’s completely dumb that you HAVE to waste a spell slot on Mage Armor or Find Familiar when they make so much more sense as rituals*.

<edit: Oh, and there’s an upcoming adventure that will require the party to be equipped with potions of Water Breathing. Rather than have the NPCs just show up with a solution for the party, I’d like to empower them to set themselves up by using Water Breathing as a ritual by themselves - more self-empowerment>

* And don’t get me started on 5E’s version of Shield and True Strike, just ....grrrr....

I am a bit confused.

It seems like you are expanding spells that can be cast as rituals but them limiting how many rituals you can cast in a day by your attunement feature and then also each of those only 1/day and making them take longer to cast???

How is this helping any of your goals? I mean, you have a lot more spells as rituals, but then you hardly get to use them.

a) sure, a lot of spells could be rituals that aren't. if you want to give some spells the ritual tag that don't have it, go ahead and do it. if it is too powerful that way, switch it back.

b) your wife can cast any prepared ritual spell as a ritual without expending a spell slot. so, she should still have slots available for healing spells. now, as a cleric she still has to have the rituals prepared.

c) as others have stated, Find Familiar is a ritual (as is Water Breathing) and Mage Armor can be a ritual if you as the DM want it to be.

Personally, I don't think your idea is going to accomplish much towards helping your goals. Maybe I am missing something...?

There are other ways you might want to consider. Maybe grant classes with the ritual feature a number of spells equal to their spellcasting ability score modifier to make rituals. When they level, they can change out a custom ritual spell they have for a new one. Or maybe when their proficiency bonus improves they gain a new one (and begin with two) if you want to keep it based on proficiency bonus. This way they begin with two "custom" rituals, and gain another at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th.

 

[Stormonu]

Forgive me, I'm still getting my hands wet with utilizing the existing ritual system, so please ignore me if I'm already calling out spells that are already rituals; my main goal is to expand the list without it becoming too powerful.

That's part of the reason for the tight clamp - attunement + 1/day. I'm hoping to start with higher restrictions and loosen them, rather than needing the reverse.

Also, since I don't run campaigns past about 9th-12th level (in the 30 years I've played), I'm not overly familiar with higher level spells in actual play (especially for this version). Part of posting here was to get some comments on what spells added to the list were or were not appropriate.

As for spells such as Charm, those are more villian options - using a ritual on a captured enemy to bend them to your will to perform some required task. Less so something I would expect an actual PC might use, but possible.

 

[tetrasodium]

Wrt spells like charm and feeble mind, a restrained prisoner rarely has much choice on treatment