D&D 5E Are 5e Saving Throws Boring?

[Esker]

To me, I have the opposite view.

Save or die is boring. Fail and done is not tense, not dramatic- it just leads to someone out.

Save or held, save or fear, save or - insert significant impact that drives action - is an event where fsilure leadsvto events and needs right there in combat.

I agree. That wisdom save vs charm when you're fighting a vampire? Hugely tense. Even a DEX save to avoid a huge fall can be pretty dramatic, particularly if the consequences are more than just the damage: Just last weekend we were fighting a green dragon, who had dived into a lake. Cleric empties out the lake with control water. My rogue skis down the side of the lake onto the dragon's back, passing an Acrobatics check to hang on. Dragon flies 80' in the air taking me and the barbarian with it, and uses a legendary action to try to knock us prone. DEX saves to avoid falling 80' all the way to the bottom of the lake... We'd worked hard to get into that position! It was a dramatic moment. I failed, the barbarian succeeded (remembered later that I should have had advantage as I was Hasted... dang it... but neither here nor there).

It was a major setback that we nonetheless overcame that lent drama to the scene in a way that rolling a save to not instantly die would not have.

Same campaign about a year ago, we ran into a pair of banshees. When the first banshee used their wail, we didn't know what to expect (we didn't know what it was yet), and about half of us failed, going unconscious. Fortunately the cleric saved, and brought everyone up with a Mass Healing Word. The second banshee uses its wail: everyone make a CON save... Now that we knew what would happen, it was terrifying! This time, only the lore bard succeeds, but he'd failed the first time so was likely to go down if he got hit. He gets one chance to cast a spell before very likely going down too, resulting in a TPK. He brings up the cleric with Healing Word. Cleric heals the rest of us, and we defeat the banshee.

Tell me that second CON save wasn't more dramatic than an old-style save or die.

 

[shadowoflameth]

For my part. I think if the challenges are appropriate to your party, Saves can still contribute to the fun. Some like the rogue with evasion have special things that happen on a success and some monsters have harsher consequences for multiple save failures. (which almost always work out for the player in in my experience). I DM'd a campaign in 5E to high level where the big bad was a half Dragon Empyrean. The monster made every save and the part members failed every save in the battle and still easily won. Just throwing that experience out there.

 

[5ekyu]

A big aspect of whether saving throws, or attack rolls, etc. are exciting is whether failure is allowed.

In a game where the party are not allowed to fail their task then there isn't tension. "They know they will just heal up after the fight."

In a game where failure is looming then it matters. Yes, they can heal up after the fight, but they only have a limited number of hit dice and healing potions. Once they run out of those they're probably going to need to abandon their mission to rest up.

Maybe they can make another attempt after resting, but then, maybe things have gotten much harder too. Maybe they can't make another attempt at all.

TPKs or individual character deaths, while rare, also create tension when possible.

I think the key is defining fail. Healing up after a fight you lost is fine but if that loss cost you the mission, the objective and that is shown to matter - then it matters.

I think in too many cases it is a perception that there is no fail but dead is a problem.

 

[Umbran]

I think in too many cases it is a perception that there is no fail but dead is a problem.

Well, there's the question of what the players would call a success. If you are playing the game mostly for the tactical stuff, with the goal of gaining treasure (a perfectly valid way to play the game) then you probably don't care all that much if you lose a battle. So, you failed to get the treasure. Easy come, easy go, and all that. If you live, there's always another treasure to try for. Very Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, if you will. Episodic stories, with no long-term concerns? Then death = fail.

If instead you have some more narrative-based goal you want to reach, then things other than death matter to you, and can have failures.

 

[ad_hoc]

For my part. I think if the challenges are appropriate to your party, Saves can still contribute to the fun. Some like the rogue with evasion have special things that happen on a success and some monsters have harsher consequences for multiple save failures. (which almost always work out for the player in in my experience). I DM'd a campaign in 5E to high level where the big bad was a half Dragon Empyrean. The monster made every save and the part members failed every save in the battle and still easily won. Just throwing that experience out there.

That sounds like a perfect example of what I would consider boring saves and encounter overall.

Where is the tension and excitement if nothing matters?

 

[dave2008]

If the only changes you made were to increase the stakes of saving throws and reduce the availability of healing, the game would be a bloodbath.

That is highly dependent on how you play the game. One of my groups has been to together since the 80's and started with D&D/ 1e AD&D. We play with much more restrictive healing than the DMG variants and we don't have a bloodbath. The PCs just adventure differently than my group that started with 4e and was used to healing surges. They both play 5e, but they go about it a bit differently.

 

[Arnwolf666]

I always wonder about other people’s games. I am constantly using enemy spellcasters. Pc’s are being banished, polymorphed, dominated, suffering from contagion. My players really want to pass a save. And my spellcasters are tired of the fighter and barbarian being dominated to kick their ass and pretty much prepare for those contingencies because they are scared.

 

[NaturalZero]

There was a UA article providing guidelines for players rolling attacks instead of DMs rolling saves

I think the big issue this doesn't address for me is presence of unique effects on a crit. What happens when Flesh to Stone crits? Does Fireball get an extra effect? Does Chain Lightning hit more targets? I'd like the default assumption of the game to be attack rolls where special things can happen on a 20 beyond more damage or simple success.

 

[Arnwolf666]

I always wonder about other people’s games. I am constantly using enemy spellcasters. Pc’s are being banished, polymorphed, dominated, suffering from contagion. My players really want to pass a save. And my spellcasters are tired of the fighter and barbarian being dominated to kick their ass and pretty much prepare for those contingencies because they are scared.

I think the big issue this doesn't address for me is presence of unique effects on a crit. What happens when Flesh to Stone crits? Does Fireball get an extra effect? Does Chain Lightning hit more targets? I'd like the default assumption of the game to be attack rolls where special things can happen on a 20 beyond more damage or simple success.

not everything has to have a special rule for Crits. And a fireball Crit can be just rolling lots of 6s when you roll for damage. I definitely don’t want to be crit by a fireball or fire breathing dragon. For us non fighters failing the safe is bad enough

 

[dave2008]

I think the big issue this doesn't address for me is presence of unique effects on a crit. What happens when Flesh to Stone crits? Does Fireball get an extra effect? Does Chain Lightning hit more targets? I'd like the default assumption of the game to be attack rolls where special things can happen on a 20 beyond more damage or simple success.

Sure, but the only way you're getting that is to do it on the fly, make up your own list of spell crits, look to see is some else as on DMsGuild or the internet has done it, or play a different game. Most of them are easy to do on the fly fortunately (any damage spell can follow the same rules for weapon attacks), it is the odd cases that would need some thought.

Please note that you can already crit spells with an attack roll.