Help Me Understand the GURPS Design Perspective

pemerton

Legend
I would never try to sell GURPS as the answer to every question of ‘what system should I play for X’ for everyone. But for some people it is the right answer. A better answer than Cortex+ etc.

The OP wanted to understand GURPS so they can decide for themselves if it would be a good game for them. Hopefully the information being provided by people who play GURPS is helping with that.
Back on the first page (and in some follow-ups too) I posted about my (very extensive) RM experience, and what the appeal is. I've never played GURPS, but I think its appeal is pretty close to RM.

But I don't think you can do supers with RM. Or, rather, while the PCs might look superheroes, the stories won't look like superhero comics.
 

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Back on the first page (and in some follow-ups too) I posted about my (very extensive) RM experience, and what the appeal is. I've never played GURPS, but I think its appeal is pretty close to RM.

But I don't think you can do supers with RM. Or, rather, while the PCs might look superheroes, the stories won't look like superhero comics.

If I'd touched MERP (or even seen the rulebook) in the last decade and a half I might be tempted to take this as a challenge to hack. But it would end up as very different to MERP.

One thing I'm sure about - the armour types would be replaced by defense types, and "Invulnerable" defenses like Superman's and The Hulk's would take very little damage other from banes (kryptonite, etc.) but instead of bleeding a la Rolemaster there would be environmental damage and bullet ricochets that endangered the bystanders. But we're getting very deep into hack territory here.
 

pemerton

Legend
If I'd touched MERP (or even seen the rulebook) in the last decade and a half I might be tempted to take this as a challenge to hack. But it would end up as very different to MERP.

One thing I'm sure about - the armour types would be replaced by defense types, and "Invulnerable" defenses like Superman's and The Hulk's would take very little damage other from banes (kryptonite, etc.) but instead of bleeding a la Rolemaster there would be environmental damage and bullet ricochets that endangered the bystanders. But we're getting very deep into hack territory here.
Modelling superheroes can be done with the PC build elements in RM, though not with the existing build rules.

Eg Superman etc have Invulenrability (as per the spell in RMC I), which is half concussion hits and only super-large crits. Jean Grey has the Mentalist lists, and Telepathy, to 50th level with no ESF and a very big PP pool. Wolverine has Self Healing to 50th level with no PP required (or maybe a max number of PP to spend per round). Etc.

But you would need completely new resolution rules to get anything like superhero gameplay - like the ricochet rules you mention. Personally I don't think it would be worth it. Just go with Champions!
 

Beleriphon

Totally Awesome Pirate Brain
I’ve seen “evil Supeman“ type stories printed in Marvel, Dark Horse and other companies’ lines, but the Daxamite swap would be an interesting one for me. Imagine, the Daxamite teams up with Lex Luthor, who thinks his stockpile of kryptonite will keep his hand on “Superman’s“ leash. Which seemingly works fine until the ruse is dropped...

Isn't this where Flaw: Deadly Lead Allergy comes into play for GURPS? Does that mean Daxamites are actually really vulnerable to most small calibre handguns in GURPS?
 

dbm

Savage!
Back on the first page (and in some follow-ups too) I posted about my (very extensive) RM experience, and what the appeal is. I've never played GURPS, but I think its appeal is pretty close to RM.

But I don't think you can do supers with RM. Or, rather, while the PCs might look superheroes, the stories won't look like superhero comics.
Rolemaster was our game-of-choice for years, across both Second Edition and Standard Edition. The longest running campaign I have ever played in is still a RM campaign. So I am well aware of its strengths and quirks.

Comparing any attempt to run supers with RM versus GURPS is meaningless. The amount of effort needed to get RM like a supers game would be at least one order of magnitude, probably two or even three orders of magnitude larger than running the game in GURPS.

RM is too similar to DnD and, I am sure you will know, originally started off as a set of optional rule systems you could bolt-on to your DnD game. To run supers in DnD you need to make so many changes it basically becomes a completely new game - Mutants & Masterminds. M&M now has so few shared components with DnD OGL it’s a vestigial relationship at most.

GURPS 3e sucked at supers, big time. 3e was a time of rapid expansion for GURPS, and every genre book was standalone, with limited shared design space (yay for the thread topic!). The most egregious example of this was Supers vs Psionics. Both games include psionic powers, but the cost of these powers was at least twice as expensive in Supers. If you tried to mash-up the psychic systems from the two books, any character made with Psionic version would wipe the floor with a Supers version (and throw shade at most other super characters with the same point total, too). This is because the two genre books were created with different baseline assumptions.

GURPS 4e (which is now 15 years old) was written to take all the stuff created across the lifetime of 3e (which itself lasted 16 years), distill it down, find the good stuff and eliminate as much as the rules cruft as possible. Yes, there are still a lot of rules available in GURPS but the vast majority of those rules all exist in the two core books (Characters and Campaigns). The other books provide guidance on how to use the existing rules to play a game of the type you (the hypothetical ‘you’) are looking for. They may provide more detailed options to increase the emphasis on different aspects, but these are just that - options. There are also ever more books with pre-made materials so that you don’t need to create everything whole-cloth if you are the GM.

Which brings me back to the core question: what is the GURPS design perspective? It is that people want to play different games, and there isn’t a perfect (or even imperfect, in many cases) system already existing that will support those games. And even if there was, why learn a new system with rules that are 70-80% new ways of doing the same thing when you can instead have one system you learn that covers core actions with the same rules and just tops-up with optional rules for the more unique stuff?

Also, since RPGs are about a shared experience and there is an element of chance (as opposed to books etc. where everything runs on author fiat) there needs to be a mechanism to help ensure all players have the same amount of spot light time / game impact. There are several different ways of doing this. GURPS has tried to use a fairly scientific approach as the observable world is the most accessible benchmark we have available. If you like games with strong internal logic, then you will probably find GURPS enjoyable. If you think this kind of stuff gets in the way of having a cool game with your friends then there are other systems which might be a better fit for your needs.
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
@Umbran
Again, with asking for consistency?

Nope.

I’m pointing out comics are RIFE with inconsistencies, many of which are addressed with plot armor, handwavium, and the like. Because, as you no doubt realize- as do most in this thread- writers often have only the most fleeting acquaintances with the Sci-Fi terminology they use.

Complicating things further, what a given character can do can vary wildly upon the writers assigned to the title. Character bibles (if they exist) for superhero comics are suggestions and guidelines, not rulebooks.

RPGs based on comic, though, ARE rulebooks. Games that rely on/permit too much plot armor & handwavium lose internal coherence. And a loss of consistency in a game/campaign can kill it.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
IMO if you want to run a game with Batman and Superman in the same team, then you need to accept some compromises. And IMO DM Fiat is inferior to giving the players the tools to handle these issues. Superman snaps and attacks Batman? PC spends a Batpoint: ‘Good thing Superman gave me a kryptonite ring to defend myself with if he ever went rogue!’ Things continue to escalate. Spends second : ‘looks like it’s time to get out my armoury of kryptonite weapons that I keep for emergencies!’ Superman continues to be unreasonable. Third Batpoint: ‘I set off the Kryptonite Nuke.’
From this post, it looks to me like only Batman gets those plot-shaping “points”.

Where’s Snapped Superman’s?
Point 1: “Glad I gave Batman that fake kryptonite to put him at ease?”

Point 2: “I wonder when he’ll realize I used my heat vision to ruin the circuits of his kryptonite arsenal?”

Point 3: “While he’s trying to trigger that deadman switch, I’ll zip out to the asteroid belt and start lobbing rocks in his general direction. Nuking Bats from space is the only way to be sure.”
 

macd21

Adventurer
From this post, it looks to me like only Batman gets those plot-shaping “points”.

Where’s Snapped Superman’s?
Point 1: “Glad I gave Batman that fake kryptonite to put him at ease?”

Point 2: “I wonder when he’ll realize I used my heat vision to ruin the circuits of his kryptonite arsenal?”

Point 3: “While he’s trying to trigger that deadman switch, I’ll zip out to the asteroid belt and start lobbing rocks in his general direction. Nuking Bats from space is the only way to be sure.”

Superman gets plot points if he has enough chargen points left over for them after buying up his strength, speed, heat vision, flight etc.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I'm not familiar with that; it sounds a bit midichlorian-like. And like mid-chlorians, it seems to be the result of an attempt to transform genre tropes into would-be scientifid explanations.

The reason that Spidey can walk on walls is because he was bitten by a radioactive spider. We don't need more explanation than that! (And no more expalanation than that is available.)
Spectacular Spider Man, 134-136.

Thankfully, an idea that quickly got ignored and replaced with other unlikely rationales for the ability that are less obviously wrong.

If you think this sort of thing is a big problem, then I don't see how you can take superheroes very seriously as a genre? (Except very austere versions, perhaps, like Watchmen? Maybe the Phantom?)

Dude, I’ve been reading superhero comics since my youth, mostly Marvel & DC. My collection goes back to the early 1960s, and I only stopped in the late 1990s because of space considerations.

I enjoy the HELL out of superheroic comics, fiction like Wildcards and (to this day) playing the games. None of which stops me from noticing the inconsistencies.

To me, they’re no more a barrier to my enjoyment of THAT fiction than 10klb flying fire-breathing reptilians are for fantasy or galaxy spanning empires for Sci-Fi.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Oh yeah...@Umbran

Why should we assume Superman is an “easy read“ for Batman? As in, tipping Bats off that he’s going kookoo?
 

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