D&D 5E Changing How Wizards Use Cantrips

[Hawk Diesel]

So I was thinking about how Wizards in 5e and how they use a spellbook and have to prepare spells from their spellbook. Except cantrips. For some reason, Wizards don't need to write down cantrips or place them in their spellbook. But Wizards are supposed to be the ultimate in flexibility of available spells. They have the most spells they can use, and with good planning and preparation should theoretically have the right spell for the job. Except for cantrips.

So, I was considering changing the way a Wizard uses cantrips, and thought I would post it here to see if people had any thoughts or potential for abuse.

So in my planned revision, I am removing the "Cantrips Known" column from Wizards. Instead, when a character gets their first level in Wizard, they start with a spellbook containing 4 cantrips and 6 1st-level spells.

Instead of having access to all their cantrips in their spellbook, they have to prepare their cantrips just like their spells. To compensate for having to use their memorization slots for cantrips, Wizards can memorize a number of spells from their spellbook equal to their Intelligence modifier + their Wizard level + their Proficiency bonus. In early levels a Wizard should have access to one less cantrip, but by level 20 will have access to one more cantrip (assuming they choose to memorize a number of cantrips equal to their proficiency bonus), so for me this seems to equal out.

But now where it gets interesting is that a Wizard can choose to memorize all their cantrips (meaning access to fewer spells) or memorize no cantrips (meaning access to more spells but once they are out, they have NO magic available).

In addition, whenever a wizard gains a new wizard level, they can choose to learn a spell they are capable of casting, or a cantrip.

Essentially, this would mechanically make cantrips be treated exactly the same as spells for Wizards, with a slight adjustment to the number of total cantrips and spells they can memorize to account for having to choose to memorize cantrips.

What do people think? Is there any issue or balance concern that I haven't considered with this mechanic? Any foreseeable problems to be prepared for? Has anyone ever tried this?

 

[commandercrud]

Interesting idea. Worth a playtest.

 

[Krachek]

So I was thinking about how Wizards in 5e and how they use a spellbook and have to prepare spells from their spellbook. Except cantrips. For some reason, Wizards don't need to write down cantrips or place them in their spellbook. But Wizards are supposed to be the ultimate in flexibility of available spells. They have the most spells they can use, and with good planning and preparation should theoretically have the right spell for the job. Except for cantrips.

So, I was considering changing the way a Wizard uses cantrips, and thought I would post it here to see if people had any thoughts or potential for abuse.

So in my planned revision, I am removing the "Cantrips Known" column from Wizards. Instead, when a character gets their first level in Wizard, they start with a spellbook containing 4 cantrips and 6 1st-level spells.

Instead of having access to all their cantrips in their spellbook, they have to prepare their cantrips just like their spells. To compensate for having to use their memorization slots for cantrips, Wizards can memorize a number of spells from their spellbook equal to their Intelligence modifier + their Wizard level + their Proficiency bonus. In early levels a Wizard should have access to one less cantrip, but by level 20 will have access to one more cantrip (assuming they choose to memorize a number of cantrips equal to their proficiency bonus), so for me this seems to equal out.

But now where it gets interesting is that a Wizard can choose to memorize all their cantrips (meaning access to fewer spells) or memorize no cantrips (meaning access to more spells but once they are out, they have NO magic available).

In addition, whenever a wizard gains a new wizard level, they can choose to learn a spell they are capable of casting, or a cantrip.

Essentially, this would mechanically make cantrips be treated exactly the same as spells for Wizards, with a slight adjustment to the number of total cantrips and spells they can memorize to account for having to choose to memorize cantrips.

What do people think? Is there any issue or balance concern that I haven't considered with this mechanic? Any foreseeable problems to be prepared for? Has anyone ever tried this?

Should have been add to the UA.
Its a nice counterpart to spell versatility.
Add writing cantrip in spell book, and thus acquire them as other spells.

 

[dave2008]

I like it, makes cantrips a resource/strategic choice.

 

[Dausuul]

What do people think? Is there any issue or balance concern that I haven't considered with this mechanic? Any foreseeable problems to be prepared for? Has anyone ever tried this?

I have not tried it, but I like it. I don't see any balance problems. Balance for spellcasters is mostly controlled through spell slots, and you aren't changing the number of slots available--only the mix of spells that can be cast with them. It's a small versatility boost, but nothing major.

My one concern is that cantrip selection is a place where wizards make permanent choices that distinguish one wizard from another. Removing that eliminates a point of identity for the wizard. In practice, however, I doubt it would be a big issue. If your wizard doesn't have a clearly defined persona and identity, you probably just took toll the dead and mage hand anyway.

 

[GMMichael]

Wizards could use them as toothpicks, tree ornaments, cat toys.

Oh, not caltrops?

Then...um... I like the all-or-none idea, just because I miss the days when a wizard had to draw her dagger. And for what it's worth, I don't think I ever saw Gandalf cast more than two spells in a day.

 

[Ashrym]

I would like it better if it weren't also adding to the spells prepared by also adding proficiency bonus to spells prepped. That marginalizes the choice part because it's nothing but net gain in versatility overall. I find it more likely a wizard will prep a lot of cantrips at low levels when they have no slots and few cantrips at higher levels when they have a lot of slots to increase the already nice chunk of spells available.

Leave the number of spells prepped as is then change cantrips from known to scribed and prepped and I really like the idea that way.

 

[aco175]

I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplice? It seems you are trying to take spells away from the mage just to make them old-school. I liked the way that casters were given a spell to always use to get away from having the one or two spells and then be a poor crossbowman. I also think that most campaigns never make it to level 20 to get the extra cantrip at the cost of taking one away at early levels is a good idea. I like the idea of having them in the spellbook and being able to get more. I also like the idea of having spells that you do not need to study though.

Didn't we just have a 'wizards suck' thread and how should be give them more stuff.

 

[5ekyu]

So I was thinking about how Wizards in 5e and how they use a spellbook and have to prepare spells from their spellbook. Except cantrips. For some reason, Wizards don't need to write down cantrips or place them in their spellbook. But Wizards are supposed to be the ultimate in flexibility of available spells. They have the most spells they can use, and with good planning and preparation should theoretically have the right spell for the job. Except for cantrips.

So, I was considering changing the way a Wizard uses cantrips, and thought I would post it here to see if people had any thoughts or potential for abuse.

So in my planned revision, I am removing the "Cantrips Known" column from Wizards. Instead, when a character gets their first level in Wizard, they start with a spellbook containing 4 cantrips and 6 1st-level spells.

Instead of having access to all their cantrips in their spellbook, they have to prepare their cantrips just like their spells. To compensate for having to use their memorization slots for cantrips, Wizards can memorize a number of spells from their spellbook equal to their Intelligence modifier + their Wizard level + their Proficiency bonus. In early levels a Wizard should have access to one less cantrip, but by level 20 will have access to one more cantrip (assuming they choose to memorize a number of cantrips equal to their proficiency bonus), so for me this seems to equal out.

But now where it gets interesting is that a Wizard can choose to memorize all their cantrips (meaning access to fewer spells) or memorize no cantrips (meaning access to more spells but once they are out, they have NO magic available).

In addition, whenever a wizard gains a new wizard level, they can choose to learn a spell they are capable of casting, or a cantrip.

Essentially, this would mechanically make cantrips be treated exactly the same as spells for Wizards, with a slight adjustment to the number of total cantrips and spells they can memorize to account for having to choose to memorize cantrips.

What do people think? Is there any issue or balance concern that I haven't considered with this mechanic? Any foreseeable problems to be prepared for? Has anyone ever tried this?

Interesting idea but it's missing the basic "why?"

"Hey its different" and "hey it's like this other thing" are ok as far as inspirations go but for down and dirty "why" you need to have more explicit goals to reach more explicit changes in play.

"If you dont know where you are going, you likely dnd up somewhere else."

What I see happening from this - I would prepare one attack cantrip, maybe one utility or them cantrip and so j would wind up with one or more extra prep slots for other spells. Nobody is gonna view the risk of "running out of magic" as worth the gains of that last extra prep slot - so that's just not gonna happen.

So, mostly the impact is "another prep or two" and less play of the second best cantrips.

Additionally, if you add cantrip by giving up one of your spell picks later on, its doubtful anyone will.

To me, if your goal is to provide flexibility so that cantrip options see more play try this.

1 The normal cantrips know works the same as it does in the book. No slots needed.
2 if a wizard wants to cast a cantrip they do not know, they can do so spending a spell slot.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplice? It seems you are trying to take spells away from the mage just to make them old-school. I liked the way that casters were given a spell to always use to get away from having the one or two spells and then be a poor crossbowman. I also think that most campaigns never make it to level 20 to get the extra cantrip at the cost of taking one away at early levels is a good idea. I like the idea of having them in the spellbook and being able to get more. I also like the idea of having spells that you do not need to study though.

Didn't we just have a 'wizards suck' thread and how should be give them more stuff.

I don't understand your comment. I haven't taken anything away from the wizard. I just rearranged cantrips so that they are treated more mechanically similar to spells. There's nothing in there about cantrips functioning any differently other than them needing to be prepared and scribed into a Wizard's spellbook.

As an aside, I really didn't agree with the thread suggesting that wizards suck thread.

Interesting idea but it's missing the basic "why?"

"Hey its different" and "hey it's like this other thing" are ok as far as inspirations go but for down and dirty "why" you need to have more explicit goals to reach more explicit changes in play.

"If you dont know where you are going, you likely dnd up somewhere else."

I disagree. For one, just because you don't know where you are going, doesn't mean you won't like where you end up.

But I do have a goal, even if it wasn't well or explicitly stated. I am trying to make cantrips be treated more like spells, rather than something separate. The recent UA has put out those options to increase versatility of cantrips. And I think that it is in part because the change increases player enjoyment. It sucks choosing a cantrip only to find it be a lame duck or not what you wanted. Whether you prepare your spells or have spells known, cantrips are largely locked regardless of how a player comes to enjoy them or how the needs of the group may change in response to the campaign.

I am considering a similar change for clerics and druids, who also prepare their spells. The main question I'm trying to determine is whether a spellcaster must draw from the same pool of prepared spells, or if it should be separate. Personally, I like keeping it all together, hence the new equation for the number of spells a wizard can prepare.

What I see happening from this - I would prepare one attack cantrip, maybe one utility or them cantrip and so j would wind up with one or more extra prep slots for other spells. Nobody is gonna view the risk of "running out of magic" as worth the gains of that last extra prep slot - so that's just not gonna happen.

So, mostly the impact is "another prep or two" and less play of the second best cantrips.

Additionally, if you add cantrip by giving up one of your spell picks later on, its doubtful anyone will.

I'm fine with this. A player is still limited by action economy and spell slots, so the increased number of spells prepared doesn't bother me much. If a player wants to prepare lots of cantrips and fewer spells, or vice versa, then ok. Additionally, if a player really wants to add a new cantrip but don't want to give up one of their two new spells when they level up, there is always the possibility of finding a scroll of that cantrip, or researching it during downtime.