D&D 2E Which is the better fantasy rpg and why: D&D 5e or Pathfinder 2e?

[togashi_joe_enworld]

The original post said editions 1e-5e.

Nope...read it again. My sentence syntax clearly refers to my 5e experience.

 

[generic]

Nope...read it again. My sentence syntax clearly refers to my 5e experience.

Ah, I see. That, I understand. Reading lowkey's post reveals a small grammatical error, but I'm sure you know what he meant.

 

[Tony Vargas]

If you didn't even look at the options stuff, I think your opinion of 2E as getting worse and worse is a bit unfair.

Oh, I purchased them, looked at them, and despaired for the game.

I definitely don't fear bloat. Honestly 30 years of TT RPGs and I have yet to see a game I ran or played in ruined by bloat other than Rifts, because virtually all games are designed in a sufficiently modular way. Most games that have problems, start with those problems, or acquire them very early on.

Yeah, we're looking at the same things, not even from terribly different perspectives, it sounds like (40 years vs 30), acknowledging the same problems, but seeing different underlying causes.
It happens.

I have never dug into Rifts, I know it had a pretty awful reputation as a monstrous, utterly broken thing, so maybe if I had been exposed (and survived) it's bloat issues would make those of 2e or 3e or GURPS seem trivial by comparison.

Yeah, that's a shallow aesthetic philosophy, that appeals to a certain mindset. It's not a fact, nor is it the be-all and end-all of design. Minimalism has it's place, but this is not that place

There might be a place for design elegance, if not minimalism.

Hero System didn't fail to sell well because "you didn't need much else". Plenty of games like that sold well.

It's sales really told that story: from 4th (when it became a universal system) on, the core rules would sell well, the supplements that merely used them to adapt to different genres would not. You just didn't really need them. Sure, like just about every other RPG, Hero never had the market dominance of D&D, but, within it's own niche, it displayed that issue. A robust enough core system kills demand for supplements. A line based on a fragile/baroque system can sell better than one based on a robust/elegant one, because it needs to be constantly touched up, there's utility, if potentially declining marginal utility, in each new product, because that utility simply wasn't delivered up-front.

Hero System ..reduced anything you tried to play in it to totally flavourless mush.

Hero Systems PCs have been the best-realized, most flavorful I've seen. Because you start with the concept - any concept you want - and adapt the system to it.

Only if you start with the system and try to build something on a mechanical basis, and fit it to a concept later, do you end up with something generic... and usually mechanically pretty poor, too, ironically. Even though Champions! always had generic archetypes like 'Brick' and 'Energy Projector' you couldn't just start with one like it was a class.

Classes are good when you're stuck for a character concept, that way - you can just pick class, race, &c, and have a generic character that might evolve into something, but will at least go through the motions of it's role and contribute until you do (or even if it never comes together). Pregens, sample characters, and pre-builds are also good that way.

 

[generic]

Classes are good when you're stuck for a character concept, that way - you can just pick class, race, &c, and have a generic character that might evolve into something, but will at least go through the motions of it's role and contribute until you do (or even if it never comes together).

This is why I like the hybrid system embraced by SotDL.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Tony Vargas]

Except that D&D 5e didn't exist in the 1970s...

5e really is more trying to bring the 80s D&D experience back, than the 70s, AFAICT (as someone who just missed said 70s experience, that is). But, I think experience with D&D in the 70s, 80s & 90s carries over to 5e pretty well, especially when it comes to DMing.

This is why I like the hybrid system embraced by SotDL.

Can't say I recall hearing of it before, but Schwalb has done some good work in the past. I might check it out someday....

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[pogre]

I cannot comment on PF2E because I have not played it and likely won't. Not because I have anything against PF or any other game - it is just that it so easy to put together a 5e game. Players LEAP at the chance to join a 5e game - I have to sell anything else to run it.

I think WOTC has done a wonderful job with 5E. The level of complexity and release schedule has made getting into D&D pretty easy these days. The people complaining are largely hardcores who want more options and rules.

I'm on the opposite side of the fence - I would be fine if they did not release another player option and/or monster and concentrated on quality adventures. BTW, I know I am very much in the minority on that point of view, particularly on ENWorld.

D&D 5E would not be my choice for an RPG of the fantasy genre. However, it is certainly my group's choice and that is what matters to me.

 

[Zardnaar]

I cannot comment on PF2E because I have not played it and likely won't. Not because I have anything against PF or any other game - it is just that it so easy to put together a 5e game. Players LEAP at the chance to join a 5e game - I have to sell anything else to run it.

I think WOTC has done a wonderful job with 5E. The level of complexity and release schedule has made getting into D&D pretty easy these days. The people complaining are largely hardcores who want more options and rules.

I'm on the opposite side of the fence - I would be fine if they did not release another player option and/or monster and concentrated on quality adventures. BTW, I know I am very much in the minority on that point of view, particularly on ENWorld.

D&D 5E would not be my choice for an RPG of the fantasy genre. However, it is certainly my group's choice and that is what matters to me.

That's my problem. Would be willing to try it but no one's running it.

I would have to but it myself, learn the rules and then run it.

 

[teitan]

I’m gonna put my head on a chopping block but man... I think Essentials, even though I didn’t get to play it, pretty darn good. It cleaned up the problems of 4e, released the tokens with the Monster Vault so new people didn’t feel like they had to invest a ton of money in miniatures and made an excellent system more accessible. It has that old school vibe but a complexity of options. Had they revised the player book option to one book instead of two largely repetitive books instead then they could have had a legitimate hit. The big flaw to Essentials was presentation and I like it better than PF2.