When Do the 5E “Ride or Die” Folks Become Grogs Like The Rest of Us in “D&D Older Editions” And When Do We Get D&D 5E Flair for Posts?

[CreamCloud0]

I think you're excluding the desired middle here, where racial abilities are useful and character defining, certainly not "trivial boons", but also not to the point of earlier editions where 2-3 races were the "S tier" and everything else wasn't really worth playing for someone interested in mechanical strength.

Not every race is like this, of course, but I think an aarakocra fighter, a warforged fighter, and a human fighter would have pretty distinct identities simply based on their chosen race/ancestry.

well, if an aarakocra wants to use their flight they can't use medium or heavy armour, so that likely ends them up as a DEX-based sword and board or spamming arrows from the sky, a warforged gets some extra AC from intergrated protection and the human gets their feat, so sure, they might be inclined to different playstyles, but they haven't exactly revolutionised what they're doing from any other vanilla fighter have they?

 

[Mannahnin]

so, even if people 'don't do builds' as part of their character creation builds still tend to naturally arise from playing a class unless you basically intentionally design your character against itself, and species design is being diminished from an impactful building block in previous editions to an inoffensive package which happens to provides a handful of mostly trivial perks and boons that can be useful to most anyone.

For my money having species be an "impactful building block" in terms of granting bonuses to ability scores which are critical to particular classes was a mistake. Over the past nearly forty years I have increasingly come to the conclusion that it puts a perverse incentive into the character generation process, encouraging the use of particular races for mathematical reasons rather than thematic ones.

I also agree with TwoSix that you're excluding the middle here. Species can still be an impactful building block without making it a choice which mathematically incentivizes or discourages particular class choices, and thus encourages the selection of a species purely as a mathematical tool for optimization. I think the game is better if we can minimize or at least reduce the incidence of the latter.

 

[Parmandur]

okay, coming back here because my ACTUAL point got derailed debating your claim that supposedly 'people don't do builds'

so, even if people 'don't do builds' as part of their character creation builds still tend to naturally arise from playing a class unless you basically intentionally design your character against itself, and species design is being diminished from an impactful building block in previous editions to an inoffensive package which happens to provides a handful of mostly trivial perks and boons that can be useful to most anyone.

so personally, if they're not going make them important to your character's capabilites, if they're going to reduce species down to this level let's just be honest shall we? end the charade and remove all their abilities, admit that species doesn't matter and it's just there as a cosmetic, a paragraph of fluff to flavour things.

Right, my point is that even in the middle paragraph you vastly overestimate how much thought most people put into any of this. WotC ia designing for moat people, not people who even know the word "build" let alone do it.

 

[TwoSix]

well, if an aarakocra wants to use their flight they can't use medium or heavy armour, so that likely ends them up as a DEX-based sword and board or spamming arrows from the sky, a warforged gets some extra AC from intergrated protection and the human gets their feat, so sure, they might be inclined to different playstyles, but they haven't exactly revolutionised what they're doing from any other vanilla fighter have they?

So to be clear, you're saying that a fighter that can fly isn't a sufficient level of racial distinction?

Maybe you would be better off explaining what level of racial distinction you'd like to see in the game with examples?

Are we talking class and level limits like AD&D?
Racial classes like B/X?
Specialized racial kits like 2E?
Race-specific classes? (Like some 3.5 PrCs)

 

[Pedantic]

The original sin is the link between ability scores and accuracy. As long as that persists (and defenses scale at all) it's always going to be optimal to maximize that number. Ability scores can't be an interesting flavor choice if they're also the value that determines if your action was wasted or not.

 

[CreamCloud0]

For my money having species be an "impactful building block" in terms of granting bonuses to ability scores which are critical to particular classes was a mistake. Over the past nearly forty years I have increasingly come to the conclusion that it puts a perverse incentive into the character generation process, encouraging the use of particular races for mathematical reasons rather than thematic ones.

I also agree with TwoSix that you're excluding the middle here. Species can still be an impactful building block without making it a choice which mathematically incentivizes or discourages particular class choices, and thus encourages the selection of a species purely as a mathematical tool for optimization. I think the game is better if we can minimize or at least reduce the incidence of the latter.

to be fair i never claimed it was the ASI that made them impactful

 

[TwoSix]

The original sin is the link between ability scores and accuracy. As long as that persists (and defenses scale at all) it's always going to be optional to maximize that number. Ability scores can't be an interesting flavor choice if they're also the value that determines if your action was wasted or not.

100% agree with this. Take stats away from accuracy, and I'm totally fine with ASIs pretty much anywhere.

 

[CreamCloud0]

So to be clear, you're saying that a fighter that can fly isn't a sufficient level of racial distinction?

i'm saying that the fact they can fly isn't fundamentally changing much of what they're doing or how they're doing it once you get past the fact they're in the air, melee combatants now can't reach them, this has totally not changed the fact they're attacking with their weapon 1-4 times most turns

Maybe you would be better off explaining what level of racial distinction you'd like to see in the game with examples?

Are we talking class and level limits like AD&D?
Racial classes like B/X?
Specialized racial kits like 2E?
Race-specific classes? (Like some 3.5 PrCs)

i was working on this in a thread the other week or so, so i'll just reference some of that, but mostly i was attempting to give each of them features that give their species unique moves and capabilities, to truly make a member of that species 'play different' to a different species of the same class, i think i achieved this better with some than others, i would point to the dragonborn, the aasimar, the dwarf and the orc as the ones i feel i best achieved my goal with.

Masterpost

Spoiler: Dragonborn

Dragonborn
Speed:30ft HP:15+2d4 Size:Medium
Enhanced Senses: you have darkvision for 60ft and have advantage on any checks which require smell.
Draconic Ancestry: you are distantly related to a particular kind of dragon, this choice determines the element of certain other associated features pick one of [fire, cold, lightning, poison, acid].
Chromatic Weapons: you have natural weapons that deal the damage type of your ancestry
-Breath Weapon, when you take the attack action you may substitute one attack to make either a 15ft cone/30ft line breath attack, save for half, DC=8+CON+PB, it deals 2d6 damage, 3d6 at 6th, 4d6 at 11th and 5d6 at 16th, this attack recharges on a max d4 roll at the end of your turn.
-Claw Attacks, you make an attack with your claws, they are considered d6 finesse weapons that you are considered proficient in, you gain extra claw attacks with extra attack, you can use your bonus action to make an additional claw attack when you attack with them, if you attack a creature that has resistance or immunity to their element they instead deal d4 Slashing that is considered magical for the purposes of determing resistances.
Tail Sweep: when you make a melee attack you may use your bonus action to attempt to trip a creature adjacent to you, they must make a DEX saving throw or fall prone, if the target is large it has advantage on the saving throw, if it bigger than large the attempt fails.
Scaled Hide: your natural scales provide protection, you resist the damage of the type associated with your ancestry, additionally when not wearing armour you have an AC of 14+DEX(max 3).
Dragon Wings: you have a large pair of wings, as a reaction while in the air you can use them to slow your decent as well as glide a horizontal distance triple the height that you started at, at 5th level you gain a fly speed equal to your walkspeed, you must maintain concentraition to remain airbourne between turns else you safely decend to the nearest available location to land, if your concentration is forcibly broken you fall to the ground, your flyspeed is halved if you are wearing heavy armour.
Frightful Roar: you let out a terrifying roar and all non-allied creatures in a 30ft radius who can hear you must make a WIS saving throw or become frightened of you for 1 minute, they can reattempt the save at the end of each of their subsequent turns, if you have proficiency in Intimidation the initial save is made with disadvantage, if you have expertise the check is automatically failed(if they resist fear it's made with disadvantage instead), this ability uses the same charge your breathweapon uses.

Spoiler: Halfling

Halfling
Speed:25ft HP:12+2d4 Size:Small
Innate Luck: when you roll a 1 on a d20 for an attack roll, saving throw or ability check you may reroll the dice, you must use the new result.
Lucky Strikes: you have increased chances of striking a critical hit with any simple weapon you are proficient in or any cantrips that require an attack roll, your critical range is increased by 1 meaning deal critical damage on a 19-20, at 10th level your range is increased by 2 (18-20), these increases stack with any other adjustments to your critical range.
Nimbleness: you may move through the space of any creature that is of a size larger than you, additionally as a bonus action you may dash and increase your walking speed by 15ft.
Naturally Stealthy: you have advantage on all Stealth checks you make, additionally you may attempt to hide when obscured by a creature at least a size larger than you.
Undisturbed Passage: your movement speed is not impeded by nonmagical difficult terrain and attempts to track you are made at disadvantage.
Braveheart: you have advantage on saving throws against being frightened.
Sacred Hospitality: if you offer food, rest or shelter to someone in good faith and it is accepted the recipients must make a WIS saving throw to subsequently attempt any action intended to bring you harm or sabotage, this effect ends either an hour after you part ways, immediately when you declare the event over or if you attempt to bring harm or sabotage to your guest(s), additionally add a d6 to any check you make to use any of cook's utensils, brewer's kit or herbalism kit.

Spoiler: Elf

Elf
Speed:35ft HP:12+1d6 Size:Medium
Enhanced Senses: you have darkvision for 60ft and advantage on perception checks, you may add a d6 to any check you make to notice the presence of magic.
Trance: instead of sleeping you meditate for 4 hours in a semi-concious state.
Fey Ancestry: you have advantage on saving throws against being charmed and magic cannot put you to sleep.
Elven Magic: you learn any three cantrips of which's effects do not deal damage(Shillelagh and Magic Stone are not considered to deal damage), you may also cast detect magic as a ritual, pick your casting modifier of INT, WIS or CHA when you create this character.
Arcane Blademastery: if you are proficient with any of the following weapons: dagger, sickle, spear, shortsword, scimitar, rapier, longsword or greatsword, you may use it as an arcane focus, additionally you may also substitute your INT in place of the usual attack modifier required when attacking with it.
Long Learned Life: when making a skill check for arcana, history, nature, religion and one other skill you choose that you are proficient in, you may treat any roll of 9 or below as a 10 instead.
Shifting Step: once per move action up to 15ft of your movement can instead be teleportation to a location you can see, however you must walk at least 5ft before you can teleport.

Spoiler: Human

Human
Speed:30ft HP:13+2d4 Size:Medium
Resourceful: you gain a use of Heroic Inspiration after you finish a long or short rest.
Versatile: you gain an Origin feat.
Diverse Skill: you gain two skills, also pick three untrained skills, you gain half your PB to checks you make with them, if you later become proficient in any of the skills reassign the half-proficiency.
Adaptability: you may become temporarily proficient in any one skill, tool or piece of equipment over the course of a long or short rest, your proficiency lasts for 4 hours if you learnt over a short rest or 12 hours for a long rest, the known duration is doubled if you learn from someone who already has the proficiency, you may only know one proficiency at a time this way.
Leading By Example: if you succeed on an attack roll, saving throw or ability check you may use your bonus action to give advantage to someone else also attempting the same kind of d20 check who saw you.

Spoiler: Aasimar

Aasimar
Speed:30ft HP:13+2d4 Size:Medium
Celestial Resistance: you have resistance to Radiant and Necrotic damage.
Celestial Revelation: you can produce an aura of bright light centred on yourself for 10ft, and dim light for a further 5ft at will, or you can concentrate to increase the radius to 40/20, as a bonus action on your turn you may inflict one of the following effects on a number of creatures who are within your aura of light:
-Radiant damage equal to your CHA modifier to PB targets.
-cause fear for 1 round(WIS save DC=8+PB+CHA) to 1+1/2PB targets(round down), a creature who makes their save is immune to the fear effect for 24 hours.
Divine Retribution:you know the cantrips Sacred Flame and Chill Touch, CHA is your casting stat for them, when you take the attack action you may substitute one of your attacks to cast one of these cantrips, additionally when you deal damage with a weapon attack you may choose for the damage dealt by the ability modifier to count as either Radiant or Necrotic.
Winged Being: you have a large pair of wings, as a reaction while in the air you can use them to slow your decent as well as glide a horizontal distance triple the height that you started at, at 5th level you gain a fly speed equal to your walkspeed, you must maintain concentraition to remain airbourne between turns else you safely decend to the nearest available location to land, if your concentration is forcibly broken you fall to the ground, your flyspeed is halved if you are wearing heavy armour.
Healing Hands: you have a pool of d6's equal to your character level plus your WIS mod, as an action you can touch a creature to expend and roll a number of d6's up to your proficiency bonus to recover that much HP to the target, if your character is proficient in medicine they automatically maximise the amount of HP recovered, you recover all dice in your pool at the end of a long rest.
Guardian Spirit: as a reaction when an ally is attacked by a creature within 15ft of you, you may move to the nearest free adjacent position and inflict disadvantage on all attacks against them for the rest of the agressor's turn.

Spoiler: Gnome

Gnome
Speed:35ft HP:12+1d6 Size:Small
Enhanced Senses: you have 120ft darkvision.
Gnome Cunning: you have advantage on all INT, WIS and CHA saves against magic.
Friend of Animals: you can speak to and understand animals and have advantage on all Animal Handling checks, once per long rest you can cast Find Familiar.
Nature Power: drawing on the power of your current environment you cause a specific magical effect to occur, it persists for 1 minute regardless of it's usual duration and does not require concentration or material components, you have one use per long rest, and can recover a number of additional uses, one per short rest, total to half your proficiency bonus per long rest.
Arctic - Sleet Storm
Coast - Warding Wind
Desert - Major Image
Forest - Entangle
Grassland - Expeditious Retreat
Mountian - Dust Devil
Swamp - Bane
Underground+Underdark - Darkness
Magic Camoflage: as a bonus action you can become invisible until the start of your next turn or until you attack, make a damage roll or force someone to roll a saving throw.
Tricky Movement: instead of your regular move action you may instead teleport up to 25ft to a location you can see.

Spoiler: Dwarf

Dwarf
Speed:30ft HP:15+2d4 Size:Medium
Enhanced Senses: you have 120ft darkvision, you also have 10ft tremorsense while standing on solid surfaces such as earth, stone or wood, you can increase the range to 60ft by concentrating, the range is halved when standing on semi-stable substances such as sand, mud or deep snow.
Dwarven Resistance: you have resistance against poison damage, additionally you have advantage on all CON saving throws.
Dwarven Endurance: you gain an extra +1HP at every level and when you take the defend action you can expend a hit die and recover HP equal to the amount rolled+CON.
Geokinesis: you know the Mold Earth cantrip, you can cast it as a bonus action, additionally when you take the attack action you may substitute one attack to cast Earth Tremor, when you use this ability if you have spellslots you may expend one of 2nd level or higher to upcast it, this ability recharges on a max d4 roll at the end of your turn, pick your casting stat for this spell from INT, WIS or CHA when you create your character, you may cast Earth Tremor as an action with your own spell slots if you have any.
Stable: you have advantage against being knocked prone and are not affected by difficult terrain resulting from earth or stone, this includes magical difficult terrain of those kinds.
Powerful Weilder: if you are proficient with any of the following weapons: Handaxe, Light Hammer, Battleaxe, Warhammer or War Pick you may treat it as if it has the finesse property, the thrown range of Handaxe and Light Hammer are increased to 40/90 for you, additionally you count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift.
Defensive Master: while wearing armour or a shield that you are proficient in you gain an additional +1 AC for each.

Spoiler: Goliath

Goliath
Speed:35 HP:14+2d4 Size:Medium
Powerful Build: you count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift, you have advantage on all STR ability checks and saving throws you make(not attack rolls), additionally you can weild 2-handed or versatile melee weapons that don't have the heavy property in one hand.
Stone's Endurance: as a reaction when you take damage on your turn you can reduce the amount taken equal to your proficiency bonus.
Mountain Born: you have resistance to cold damage, you’re also acclimated to and ignore the negative effects of high altitudes, including elevations above 20,000 feet.
Giant's Toss: the ranges for all thrown weapons you use is increased by 50%, additionally when you take the attack action you may substitute an attack to grapple an adjacent target and if you are successful you may also choose to then subsequently throw that creature, a medium creature can be thrown up to 15ft and small or smaller creatures 25ft, if you have 18STR or more these distances increase by 10ft, if the creature is willing you do not need to grapple them to pick them up and they are not caused to become prone when they land.
Hammer Fist: your unarmed attacks deal 1d8 bludgeoning damage and you may use either the Push or Topple weapon mastery property when you hit with it.

Spoiler: Tiefling

Tiefling
Speed:30ft HP:13+2d6 Size:Medium
Enhanced Senses: you have darkvision for 60ft, you can see through magical darkness as if it were lightly obscured, you ignore light obscurement, heavily obscurement is considered light obscurement.
Infernal Magic: you know the cantrips Thaumaturgy, Produce Flame, Control Flames and Primal Savagery, you also know the spells Burning Hands, Hellish Rebuke and Arms of Hadar and can cast them without expending a spell slot at 2nd level, after you cast any of these three spells your magic must recharge by rolling a max d4 at the end of your turn before you can cast any of them again for free, you may also cast these spells normally with your own spell slots if you have any, pick INT, WIS or CHA as your casting stat for these spells when you create your character.
Hellish Resistance: you have resistance to fire damage, you reduce incoming fire, cold and poison damage by an amount equal to your CON modifier (after resistances).
Devious Tail: you may make an attack with your tail as a bonus action, when you attack a creature with your tail they must make a CON saving throw(DC=8+PB+CON) or be poisoned until the end of their next turn.
Clambering Grip: you have a climbspeed equal to your walkspeed.
Devil's Contract: magic of binding runs in your blood, if you make a verbal agreement with an individual you can enforce the terms of the agreement by as a reaction making them perform a WIS saving throw (DC=8+PB+CHA) when taking any action that directly contradicts the stated terms, if they fail they take (2+PB)d6 psychic damage, if they succeed they take half damage, you may only keep and enforce the terms of three agreements this way, you must declare to the DM when you keep the terms of an agreement at the time it is made.

Spoiler: Orc

Orc
Speed:30ft HP:14+2d6 Size:Medium
Enhanced Senses: you have darkvision for 60ft and have advantage on any checks which require smell.
Savage Build: you count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift, additionally you have increased chances of striking a critical hit with any weapon you are proficient in that is not using it's finesse property or weapon mastery, your critical range is increased by 1 meaning deal critical damage on a 19-20, at 10th level your range is increased by 2 (18-20), these increases stack with any other adjustments to your critical range.
Goring Tusks: your tusks count as a natural weapon, they deal 1d4+STR slashing damage, at the start of their turn a target hit with this weapon will take damage equal to your STR mod plus an additional 1d4 equal to the number of times they have been hit by the attack, this damage continues until they spend an action to stop the bleeding, they can also remove the effects of just one attack with a bonus action.
Agressive Charge: as a bonus action, you can move up to your speed toward an enemy of your choice that you can see or hear. You must end this movement closer to the enemy than you started, if you move at least 20ft as part of any move action in a straight line towards an enemy you can make a single melee attack to that enemy as a free action.
Relentless Endurance. When you are reduced to 0 hit points but not killed outright make a CON save (DC=14) if successful you can drop to 1 hit point instead, the first time you use this ability after a long rest it automatically succeeds.
Adrenaline Rush: once per any rest, as a reaction when you drop below half HP you can gain a number of temp HP equal to a quarter of your max HP+PB+CON.

EDIT: other species

Spoiler: Warforged

Warforged
Speed:30ft HP:14+2d4 Size:Medium
Constructed Resilience: due to your constructed form you have the following benefits:
You have advantage on saving throws against being poisoned, and you have resistance to poison and lightning damage, You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe, You are immune to disease, You don't need to sleep, and magic can't put you to sleep.
Sentry's Rest: When you take a long rest, you must spend at least six hours in an inactive, motionless state, rather than sleeping. In this state, you appear inert, but it doesn’t render you unconscious, and you can see and hear as normal.
Integrated Protection: You gain a +2AC bonus while wearing armour, you cannot wear any armour you are not proficient in, you must spend an hour incorporating or removing armour when you don or doff it, this can be done as part of a rest, your armour cannot be removed against your will while you are alive, armour worn this way does not inflict disadvantage on stealth checks.
Specialised Design: you become proficient in one type of tool, it is incorporated into your body and you double your proficiency bonus for any ability check you make with it, you must have both hands free to use this tool.
Conductive Body: you know the cantrips shocking grasp, lightning lure and blade ward, you can cast them as a bonus action, pick your casting stat for these spells from INT, WIS or CHA when you create your character, additionally, when you make an unarmed attack or attack with a weapon or ammunition constructed with metal (including those partially constructed like a spear or arrow with a wooden shaft but metal head) you may choose for the damage dealt by the ability modifier to instead be your previously chosen casting modifier's as lightning damage.

 

[TwoSix]

i'm saying that the fact they can fly isn't fundamentally changing much of what they're doing or how they're doing it once you get past the fact they're in the air, melee combatants now can't reach them, this has totally not changed the fact they're attacking with their weapon 1-4 times most turns

i was working on this in a thread the other week or so, so i'll just reference some of that, but mostly i was attempting to give each of them features that give their species unique moves and capabilities, to truly make a member of that species 'play different' to a different species of the same class, i think i achieved this better with some than others, i would point to the dragonborn, the aasimar, the dwarf and the orc as the ones i feel i best achieved my goal with.

I don't have a problem with your suggestions, most of them solid, but they suggest a difference in overall degree of change, not a major difference in kind.

And honestly, I don't see a BA prone attack (as an example) to be more impactful than flying.

 

[GreyLord]

So to be clear, you're saying that a fighter that can fly isn't a sufficient level of racial distinction?

Maybe you would be better off explaining what level of racial distinction you'd like to see in the game with examples?

Are we talking class and level limits like AD&D?
Racial classes like B/X?
Specialized racial kits like 2E?
Race-specific classes? (Like some 3.5 PrCs)

I haven't been in the conversation, so this wasn't directed at me.

I do not really prefer the direction they have taken with race in D&D recently. It's probably because I see the differences in "race" more like a thing between species, or even more, like genus (if we go through other 'races' in the past, things like a fungoid which is fungus based, or plant-based humanoids, those really aren't even somewhat illusionarily closely related to humans, but are an entirely different Kingdom [biological distinction] rather than race or species).

So, I prefer races to have bonuses to ability scores, and those bonuses to be specific and distinct (so, nothing like Tasha's options in general). I don't see something like a Venus Flytrap and a Horse having the same ability score bonuses, and I see them having different strengths related to their ability scores (if such a thing existed in real life).

However, as one would point out, it makes for optimization. If you want a Rogue, getting a race with bonuses in Dexterity and Intelligence could be extremely useful.

It's another reason I think Level Limits of the TSR editions were valid balancing ideas. Even though the ability score bonuses and special abilities probably were lesser than they are today, they still had a focused idea that if you wanted to take those special bonuses, you were going to pay in some way. You could optimize to get a better Constitution, but you were going to pay for that with a level limit (though there were exceptions).

I will admit though, that this is a PREFERENCE of mine. The races probably have just as much flavor today with their individual abilities going on, if not more, than they did in TSR D&D.

I do wonder how many may share my preferences though, and how wise it has been for WotC to go off the deep end catering to what I see as a specific group of players rather than having a broader base.

I'd say that applies to the entirety of the new rulebooks though, and not just this matter. The inclusion of making feats mandatory, creating weapon masteries and such, seem to be catering more towards a hardcore player, and the 3.X crowd than it does for the casual player with which 5e originally has done so well with.

Gritting it down to catering to these groups rather than keeping it a more simple and broad game makes me wonder if WotC has been making a mistake in some ways with the new books, or if perhaps I'm just not seeing what they are seeing.