How would you change the new Star Wars trilogy

[Ovinomancer]

More R2-D2.

THIS was the great failing of the sequels. Well spotted.

 

[Zardnaar]

More R2-D2.

King of All droids although HK 47 is competitive.

 

[Imaculata]

A Majority of the rest of it was explaining how Vader's redemption isn't actually the central theme of the Original trilogy without the prequels being tossed into the mix. In fact, it's a secondary theme that is not even introduced in the first movie.

But it is introduced in the second and third movie, which is why it IS a central theme of the trilogy. The first movie was a stand alone story which revolved merely about destroying the Deathstar and Luke starting on the path of becoming a Jedi. It wasn't until that movie was a big success, that they started working out a larger plot. But considering two thirds of the trilogy focuses on the relationship between Luke and Vader, that makes it a pretty central theme for me.

As, I also pointed out, your idea is actually NOT what the trilogy is about either, or the main theme that was presented from the first one onwards. It is a secondary theme that is presented (or...is that revisionist as well???) in the Empire Strikes Back. (edit: though even that is a tenuous stretch as we are merely introduced to the idea that He is Luke's Father...the real idea of trying to redeem him doesn't even really appear until the THIRD movie).

I am going to strongly disagree with you there. Once they started on Empire Strikes Back, they knew they were making a trilogy. So the seeds for Return of the Jedi's conflict were firmly planted in Empire. True, Empire mostly contains Vader's revelation at the end. But to ignore everything leading up to that as not a part of the bigger picture seems like a big mistake to me.

With that, Vader had to be defeated at some point of the Trilogy (being the main Villain introduced at the beginning of it) and the Emperor most likely as well. Whether it is by Vader turning, being killed, or however, is irrelevant to the overall picture. It is only that he and his forces of evil are defeated by the good guys in the fairy tale land that Star Wars takes place in.

If you're going to try and summarize the main plot of the original trilogy in that way, you can't just swipe the main story of the central character aside as if it is irrelevant. We see most of the story of Star Wars through Luke. Return of the Jedi would not end on the final shot of the force ghosts if it was irrelevant. In the end, we're following Luke's journey from humble farm boy to Jedi knight. Vader's redemption is a central part of that.

 

[GreyLord]

But it is introduced in the second and third movie, which is why it IS a central theme of the trilogy. The first movie was a stand alone story which revolved merely about destroying the Deathstar and Luke starting on the path of becoming a Jedi. It wasn't until that movie was a big success, that they started working out a larger plot. But considering two thirds of the trilogy focuses on the relationship between Luke and Vader, that makes it a pretty central theme for me.

And yet, you are the one that are wanting to ignore the other three movies by George Lucas???

Or, even, ignore the themes of the trilogy as a whole for the OT??

Really...

I am going to strongly disagree with you there. Once they started on Empire Strikes Back, they knew they were making a trilogy. So the seeds for Return of the Jedi's conflict were firmly planted in Empire. True, Empire mostly contains Vader's revelation at the end. But to ignore everything leading up to that as not a part of the bigger picture seems like a big mistake to me.

We can either look at the Trilogy as it starts out (without the revisionism...in which case this is NOT a theme of the original movie, or even the second movie. We have a revelation at the end of the Second movie which does NOT say he is going to be redeemed or not...in fact, he's been the villain the entire time up until then)...or we can look at all the stuff that Lucas put in.

The original trilogy didn't have Vader being redeemed as a real theme until the last movie. At that point, it was still the Good Guys vs. the Bad Guys...and Vader is a very bad guy.

If you're going to try and summarize the main plot of the original trilogy in that way, you can't just swipe the main story of the central character aside as if it is irrelevant. We see most of the story of Star Wars through Luke. Return of the Jedi would not end on the final shot of the force ghosts if it was irrelevant. In the end, we're following Luke's journey from humble farm boy to Jedi knight. Vader's redemption is a central part of that.

What do you mean?

I'm not swiping away the main story. The main story is the same story line and idea as well as theme that extends from the first to the third movie of the Original Trilogy...not an idea introduced at the end of the Second movie and becomes a part of the ideas of the third. It is a MAIN theme of the third movie, but not the entire trilogy.

The only way to see Vader being redeemed to Anakin as a main theme is to include the prequels.

Otherwise, it's the story of the Rebels vs. the Empire first and foremost (we don't even meet Luke until a fifth of the way through the first movie). Secondly, it's about Luke's journey from a boy to a man (first in the first movie of a boy to a hero, and then his becoming more mature from that movie onwards).

Vader's redemption is NOT central to his becoming a Man or a Jedi per se. He only had to face Vader. It BECOMES more of a theme in the third movie, but we see a whole lot of growth up until then.

NOW IF, we include the prequels (which for some reason, you WANT to use them for their themes...but don't want to include them which is...ironic)...you are absolutely correct.

But prior to the prequels...Vader's redemption is not actually necessary to the story. If you take out his entire redemption arc but still have him and the Emperor defeated in some manner Luke has still made the journey from Boy to Man...and the Rebellion still wins that fight.

Anyways, I'm not sure why I'm even discussing this. I started giving an explanation of how some people (and not even necessarily my thoughts or views) would see it as an explanation and instead am being drawn into a conversation I really didn't have an real deep interest in, in the first place.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Imaculata]

And yet, you are the one that are wanting to ignore the other three movies by George Lucas???
Or, even, ignore the themes of the trilogy as a whole for the OT??

We all know that most of this was not planned in advance. The whole idea of Anakin bringing balance to the force was introduced in the prequels and pasted on top of the redemption that Vader got in Return of the Jedi. And almost everything in the prequels is terrible, so yeah, I'm ignoring them. They are not part of the original trilogy's intent.

Now there's a discussion that could be had here regarding author intent and death of the author. In other words, how sometimes author intent is rejected by the audience, because it is not in line with the original intent of the author. A good example of this are some of the absurd changes J.K. Rowling made to Harry Potter's Lore. One would think that with her being the original author, she would have the final say on matters of lore regarding her own book series. But the idea of death of the author suggests that the audience can simply reject revisionist ideas by the author and stick to the original work. This certainly applies to George Lucas and his prequels in my opinion. I no longer consider his revisionist ideas canon in regards to the original trilogy. In fact, George Lucas barely knows the lore of his own series and I doubt he understands some of the more complex themes that were introduced in Empire Strikes Back.

As a side note, this is an interesting video on the concept of Death of the Author.

We have a revelation at the end of the Second movie which does NOT say he is going to be redeemed or not...in fact, he's been the villain the entire time up until then)...or we can look at all the stuff that Lucas put in.

I feel differently about it. I think Vader's revelation is part of the redemption plot that further developes in the third movie. The redemption wouldn't even be a thing if it weren't for the family connection between Vader and Luke. As such I definitely see the events in Empire Strikes Back as part of that plot.

The only way to see Vader being redeemed to Anakin as a main theme is to include the prequels.

That is absurd. Vader was redeemed at the end of Return of the Jedi even when the prequels did not exist yet. It forms the conclusion of Luke's journey, and the movie closes on it of all things!

Otherwise, it's the story of the Rebels vs. the Empire first and foremost (we don't even meet Luke until a fifth of the way through the first movie).

Well that depends how you look at it. Sure, the galactic conflict forms the central plot. But some may disagree with you that it is the main focus of the movie, in the sense that maybe it is all about the journey of the characters, and the war is just the backdrop. But that is wide open to viewer interpretation, I'll admit.

Secondly, it's about Luke's journey from a boy to a man (first in the first movie of a boy to a hero, and then his becoming more mature from that movie onwards).

Yes, this certainly is one of Luke's most important character arcs. But his connection to Vader is an important part of that journey. Empire explores this idea with Luke's failure in the cave as Yoda is testing him.

Vader's redemption is NOT central to his becoming a Man or a Jedi per se. He only had to face Vader. It BECOMES more of a theme in the third movie, but we see a whole lot of growth up until then.

It is true that Luke grows a lot as a character regardless of his confrontation with Vader. But Vader is a central element in the conclusion of his character arc. His ability to let go of his hate and see the humanity in his father, ultimately leading to Vader's move to the light side. And I feel this is one of the things that the cave scene in Empire sets up. Of course the movie leaves it ambiguous on purpose, so its all up to viewer interpretation.

NOW IF, we include the prequels (which for some reason, you WANT to use them for their themes...but don't want to include them which is...ironic)...you are absolutely correct.

Lets be clear here, I do not want to use the prequels for their themes or for anything. Vader's redemption exists perfectly without them.

But prior to the prequels...Vader's redemption is not actually necessary to the story. If you take out his entire redemption arc but still have him and the Emperor defeated in some manner Luke has still made the journey from Boy to Man...and the Rebellion still wins that fight.

See, this is where I disagree the most with you. Luke's journey from boy to man is already complete at the start of Return of the Jedi where we see him as a Jedi with a lot of powers he didn't have before. He is more confident and independent. To me, the galactic conflict is but the backdrop to the journey of the characters.

Anyways, I'm not sure why I'm even discussing this. I started giving an explanation of how some people (and not even necessarily my thoughts or views) would see it as an explanation and instead am being drawn into a conversation I really didn't have an real deep interest in, in the first place.

Well hey, we don't need to have this particular discussion if you don't want to.

 

[Eltab]

Vader's "I am your father" sets Luke on a whole different trajectory. Prior to that, Luke thought he was going to one-on-one the monster to avenge his fallen parent and slain mentor. Then he has to come up with a more subtle kind of victory. I believe that when Luke tells Ben's force ghost "I can't kill my own father" that he had visions of Uncle Owen swimming before his eyes.

 

[Longspeak]

The Force Awakens - I like this movie as-is for the most part. Yes, it's basically a remake of SW, but there was lots to love here. But there's some nitpicks...

• More Max Von Sydow. I mean, really, you hire a legend like that and kill him in the first scene?
• Edit out Finn's lines about Rey having a "boyfriend, cute boyfriend?" and all the one-sided romance with her.
• Edit in all of that for Po. Or just amp up the BBF vibe. One of my favorite things about this movie was they way they instantly bonded over their escape.
• When Han and Chewie first appear, Han says "We're home, Chewie," and Chewie growls. Edit in Han responding with something like, "No, it always smelled like that."
• Edit out the "Who's the girl" nonsense, or edit in something to explain why everyone thinks she's familiar.
• Edit the subtitles in the bar scene. The woman who looks so obviously evil is Resistance and the droid is a Bounty Hunter. Just because I hate looking at someone and going "Oh, they're definitely evil."
• Lay some hint at Rey's identity, probably with Maz.
• Keep it cagey about who Kylo Ren is. Maybe not explain that until the moment Han goes "The face of my son." Let the audience learn it when Rey and Finn hear it.
• Make StarKiller a little less comic-bookey. A laser that fires across the galaxy and blast multiple planets and it instantly visible from everywhere? What?
• Some discussion of who Snoke is and where he comes from. Actually, perhaps a teeny bit more exposition on the whole Republic vs' First Order thing. A bit more than we get in the Opening Crawl.

The Last Jedi - I like this movie a lot, but it has more I'd want to fix.

• I LOVE Po's ridiculous "I'm holding for General Hugs?" exchange. It's tone is off, but I like the attitude. "Can-- Can he hear me?"
• Po's not a frickin' idiot. Have him acknowledge the cost of that victory. Maybe it was worth it to get so many out alive, but have him acknowledge the sacrifice more.
• Have Holdo explain or at least reassure. We've just lost our leader, and the sub isn't telling anyone anything, and it looks like we're on a slow, inevitable death march. Maybe say something.
• Eliminate the Rose/Finn hints at romance (because Po/Finn!). OR leave those hints in and then don't wuss out in the next movie, disney! (But really, Po&Finn).
• Canto Blight... make it maybe not completely pointless. The entire subplot seems without purpose beyond "look at these evul rich people! Let's wreck it!"
• A line or two to explain why we don't constantly launch remote piloted X-Wings as hyperspace missiles at heavy targets. Why didn't we do that in the beginning of the movie?!? Think of the lives we'd have saved! Why didn't the rebels do it to the death star in SW? Or RotJ?
• Don't show us Luke's feet on the red salt. Made it a complete giveaway.
• NO-ONE answers the resistance's call? Really? NO-ONE??? How about "We've heard back, but help is too far away to get here in time." "Tell them to stay away, then, no point in sacrificing more lives." "They say if we can get to them they can take us to safety..." Something more than just silence from the entire galaxy. I'd even settle for "Damn! The transmitter was damaged and we can't send a signal!"
• I overall like Luke's reluctance, and the three versions of the Luke/Ben story. But I don't like how Rey immediately believes Ben to the point of attacking Luke when he won't talk. She watched as Ben murdered his own father. Maybe she senses conflict in him, but maybe don't immediately assume he's being truthful. "Ben has a different version of events Master Skywalker." "Of course," he realizes. "That's what it would have looked like from his view..." and then the third version of the story comes out, with Luke's shameful admission of his moment of doubt.
• Luke riding Rey's back while she does something. Pushup, maybe. (I loved that one picture from the shoot where Mark Hamil is Yoda-ing on Daisey Ridley's back.
• More discussion of Snoke. Maybe he's a clone of Palpatine, one that... had problems. SOMETHING. This coming from nowhere is annoying.

There's probably more.

And for The Rise of Skywalker, I've only seen it once, but the thing that glared for me right off the back, like many was the sudden, out of left field, mention of Palpatine. That needed to have groundwork laid in the first two movies, and then worked up to in the third.

Where the hell did this Final Order Fleet come from? It's gotta take years to build one of those, and there were thousands.

Either Po/Finn or Finn/Ruby. This deal where disney cowards shoved Ruby in a corner because of Internet Trolls was gross, and I despise the people who made that happen. I thought the romance was poorly scripted and unmotivated, but the reasons for quashing it make me want it back, times ten. Like a whole scene of them macking on each other while on the screen flashes "SCREW YOU INTERNET TROLLS THIS IS HAPPENING! IT'S CANON!"

But... really... Po/Finn.

There's definitely more for all three, especially TRoS. But I need to see TRoS again.

 

[Imaculata]

• More Max Von Sydow. I mean, really, you hire a legend like that and kill him in the first scene?

Talk about an underused legend. Yeah, they definitely could have done a lot more with him.

• Eliminate the Rose/Finn hints at romance (because Po/Finn!). OR leave those hints in and then don't wuss out in the next movie, disney! (But really, Po&Finn).

I agree that Rose wasn't needed as a love interest. I get that maybe JJ and Disney did not have a romance in mind between Poe and Finn, which is fine. But they could have done so much more with their friendship.

NO-ONE answers the resistance's call? Really? NO-ONE??? How about "We've heard back, but help is too far away to get here in time." "Tell them to stay away, then, no point in sacrificing more lives." "They say if we can get to them they can take us to safety..." Something more than just silence from the entire galaxy. I'd even settle for "Damn! The transmitter was damaged and we can't send a signal!"

This is why I think it would have made so much more sense to have Finn head to Canto Bight to activate a transmitter and call for help. Canto Bight could be occupied by the empire, but an ex Stormtrooper would be able to sneak through.

 

[Wolf72]

The Force Awakens - I like this movie as-is for the most part. Yes, it's basically a remake of SW, but there was lots to love here. But there's some nitpicks...

• (to many to requote!)

I all of those! I think more character development and less lightspeed skipping would have been better.

 

[Umbran]

The Last Jedi - I like this movie a lot, but it has more I'd want to fix.

• Have Holdo explain or at least reassure. We've just lost our leader, and the sub isn't telling anyone anything, and it looks like we're on a slow, inevitable death march. Maybe say something.

This. Good gods, people, sitting silent on your plans and asking for unwavering, unquestioning loyalty is stupid for a military leader! Poe was one of her leading subordinates. There is no reason why she should not have made him aware of the plan.

• A line or two to explain why we don't constantly launch remote piloted X-Wings as hyperspace missiles at heavy targets. Why didn't we do that in the beginning of the movie?!? Think of the lives we'd have saved! Why didn't the rebels do it to the death star in SW? Or RotJ?

Also agreed. Honestly, why aren't hyperspace missiles a thing? Why was this a thing about hyperdrive, and not just a ramming speed! thing?

• Don't show us Luke's feet on the red salt. Made it a complete giveaway.

I disagree that this is a problem. Giving it away is the point! Giving the audience a way to figure it out just before the big reveal makes the audience feel cool!

I got it based on his beard color, but that's just the three-clue-rule in action.

• More discussion of Snoke. Maybe he's a clone of Palpatine, one that... had problems. SOMETHING. This coming from nowhere is annoying.

Well, that gets answered, eventually. I don't think he needed an explanation - We went decades without an explanation of the Emperor, and we were fine with that. Snoke's a guy strong in the Dark Side. Done. So I don't care exactly where they put it.

For Rise of Skywalker...

Putting together a huge fleet... where each ship is equivalent to the Death Star, but faster! - and nobody has noticed? Doesn't make a lot of sense. I can imagine ways this can be handled*, but it wasn't handled at all.

I think the Ben/Rey kiss at the end was not a great choice.




*F'rinstance - imagine Starkiller Base was really a red herring. The fleet was made with resources diverted from that project. You probably need a couple lines in TFA, and then a link in Rise, and you're done.