D&D 5E Is expertise badly designed?

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
What roll would you call for when trying to blend in to a crowd? I don't see that Dexterity has anything to do with it, personally.
it depends on the crowd, take for example (iirc) one of the embers from the last war modules was an artificer lab kind of thing with a staff breakroom (or I added one when I ran it)... blending in there would probably be arcana or some relevant tradeskill type tool profession to pass oneself off as part of the usual nerdytype staff or at least someone who belongs in the building... blending into the crowd at a high society event might be knowledge nobility... but that doesn't exist in 5e & was poorly scoped iwhen it did so goes back to diplomacy for everything, but I might also allow creative application of chef-tools(cha) or something because those types of jobs require some level of understanding how to interact at that sort of event. a generic crowd like busy Manhattan streets/parade spectator crowds/etc would depend on if it was planned surveillance(when was the last time you asked a guy with a telecom shirt, hardhat, clipboard, & some specialized looking tool for proof of his job?), attempting to escape (intimidate no questions!), or escape streetwise(wis) or similar to know how to turn into the right kind of a store/alley/etc & vanish probably but there is -no- skill that even kinda applies for this in 5e.

You could add a bunch of skills to fix a lot of these things, but that leads to problems because you either need two pools of skills or you have to make a lot of changes to a bunch of existing overly inclusive too widely scoped skills
 

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Beleriphon

Totally Awesome Pirate Brain
You do know how a forest differs from say... manhattan & wallstreet or the businesses & apartments on either right?...

Yes, but ducking behind a tree or bushes isn't really that different than ducking behind a rubbish bin or a parked car. Not walking on broken glass is the same as avoiding loose leaves. Crossing a street to is similar to crossing a clearing.

My point isn't that they are identical, but rather an expert at being stealthy can use the same principles regardless of environment. The stealth rules still require the character to actually be unobserved, regardless of how they get to that state.

The fact that anything the wizard even needed to roll on was all but impossible for the artificer by the end of the game. There is also the arcane trickster from sharn with expertise stealth making the gloomstalker's stealth out in the wilderness favored terrains of Xendriik & depths of Khyber equally pointless in another game

Given that stealth checks are either individual affairs, or used a group check where at least half the group must succeed it seems relatively reasonable that an expert at being stealthy would be an expert at being stealthy. The ranger is still an expert at his chosen stealthiness, the rogue just happens to be better at it in general, that really shouldn't negate the ranger's abilities to do his thing in the same way using say Arcana or Religion as a pass/fail for information.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
As @NotAYakk insightfully pointed out in another thread, replacing d20 with 3d6 is mostly equivalent to just doubling bonuses and stretching out DCs, which would be another way to reduce the impact of luck.
Which struck me as an odd way of looking at it, but, whatever,

...if you use 2d10 or 3d6, you introduce diminishing returns of extra bonuses for tasks that start out as easy, whereas you actually make an additional bonus worth more for a task that starts out as moderately difficult....I kind of like that aspect of it, personally, since it means that the expert is mostly gaining when trying to perform tasks that would be somewhat challenging for a proficient character, but doesn't saturate easy tasks into foregone conclusions quite as much.
That's the idea. :)
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Hmm... it seems to me CHA is about being able to control how you are perceived.
then your looking at things like intimidate, persuade, courtly etiquette, some trade skill*, or similar not "stealth"

You can do what you want. I personally don’t like the idea of taking away from my stealth characters who are investing to be the stealth character by making them have a high dex and cha. Just my opinion.

The same applies in reverse and not just charisma characters the overly broad & inclusive set of trappings applied to stealth & persuade/deception "[Your]" stealth character is stomping on the arcana character wanting to pose as a magewright responsible for servicing a sharn lift, lamplighter, etc or a caracter skilled in cooking tools/mason tools/carpenter tools/etc from posing as a member of the kitchen staff/a mason called in to shore up the basement's drainage after that bog rainstorm cause the staff was worried about the wine cellar/the carpenter called in to make some improvements on the wine racks before the mason shows up to check the drainage/etc... but none of those characters are valued because persuade & deception cover -all- of those things
Yes, but ducking behind a tree or bushes isn't really that different than ducking behind a rubbish bin or a parked car. Not walking on broken glass is the same as avoiding loose leaves. Crossing a street to is similar to crossing a clearing.

My point isn't that they are identical, but rather an expert at being stealthy can use the same principles regardless of environment. The stealth rules still require the character to actually be unobserved, regardless of how they get to that state.



Given that stealth checks are either individual affairs, or used a group check where at least half the group must succeed it seems relatively reasonable that an expert at being stealthy would be an expert at being stealthy. The ranger is still an expert at his chosen stealthiness, the rogue just happens to be better at it in general, that really shouldn't negate the ranger's abilities to do his thing in the same way using say Arcana or Religion as a pass/fail for information.
your ducking behind a rubbish bin or parked car continues to show just how different it is moving about unnoticed in an urban environment like that compared to a natural environment. Think for a second how you would react if you saw someone "duck behind a trash can or parked car" while going about your day.. that kinda thing gets attention because it's strange & kinda crazy. Walking on leaves rather than quietly through them is something to avoid in a forest because it's an out of place sound in a comparatively quiet place... a city is loud & noisy enough that someone walking across broken glass in the street or walkway is not noticeable from anywhere but very close... but someone walking funny because they are trying to silently step across broken glass is very out of place from very far away (ie football field or more). The fact that td&d treats the two types of stealth the same leads to other problems like the druid who knows about every plant & animal in the forest including how to dress & skin a kill but can't even exhibit basic levels of hunter type stalking while stomping around looking for a deer to bag for camp or the fact that there are no skills that even kinda fit the sort of streetwise/social engineering/contacts/etc that apply to doing certain types of things in a city.
 

Beleriphon

Totally Awesome Pirate Brain
your ducking behind a rubbish bin or parked car continues to show just how different it is moving about unnoticed in an urban environment like that compared to a natural environment. Think for a second how you would react if you saw someone "duck behind a trash can or parked car" while going about your day.. that kinda thing gets attention because it's strange & kinda crazy. Walking on leaves rather than quietly through them is something to avoid in a forest because it's an out of place sound in a comparatively quiet place... a city is loud & noisy enough that someone walking across broken glass in the street or walkway is not noticeable from anywhere but very close... but someone walking funny because they are trying to silently step across broken glass is very out of place from very far away (ie football field or more).

In fairness, the stealth rules for hiding don't apply if if I see somebody duck behind a trash can. Presumably the were never hidden, or failed their Dexterity (Stealth) check and didn't hide before I saw them. I'd also suggest that if I were following somebody with the intent to be hidden, particularly at night, avoiding making my own noises would be worth doing. Those noises could be not brushing against things to ensure rats don't scurry out, or scare the flock of pigeons off a statue.

During the day in Times Square, sure that broken glass isn't to make any difference, but I still want to stay behind people and out of sight otherwise I'm going to get made. I'd also want to use my Dexterity (Stealth) to slip between the throngs of people so I don't get some German tourist yelling at me that I just spilled their Venti Mocha Latte on their new chinos.

Think about the way a perp gets tailed in a police procedural. The cops are following until the suspect notices the cop following them, then they switch out. The cop following still does their best to stay behind things and be unobtrusive, until they fail then they fall back and use Deception to make it seem like they're just some person out for the day. When the suspect bolts that Deception has failed because they realize something is up.

If we're concerned about urban versus natural environments lets look at it this way: the rogue can still sneak up on a Daask group doing a dirty deal in a back alley in the Cogs This presumably involves hiding above, under on top things to remain unseen, as well as not knocking things over to prevent giving away their position. And I think the same principles apply to allow a character in the Eldeen Reaches while stalking an owl bear.

The fact that td&d treats the two types of stealth the same leads to other problems like the druid who knows about every plant & animal in the forest including how to dress & skin a kill but can't even exhibit basic levels of hunter type stalking while stomping around looking for a deer to bag for camp or the fact that there are no skills that even kinda fit the sort of streetwise/social engineering/contacts/etc that apply to doing certain types of things in a city.

Deception or Intimidation seem like good places to start for proficiency applications if you're working on distractions.

If the druid wants to be stealthy they roll a Dexterity check, and apply an appropriate proficiency. They may or may not have a Stealth proficiency. Never mind that bagging a deer or whatever for food is covered by the Survival proficiency, not the Stealth proficiency.

Moving through a crowd unnoticed can be used with that, but again its about hiding behind and around things and people. Moving through a crowded market still requires the character to hide their presence in some way, either behind people or things. I think Assassin's Creed 2 did a reasonable job of showing how this can be done, particularly when blending in with a group.
 


cbwjm

Seb-wejem
Hmm... it seems to me CHA is about being able to control how you are perceived.
That's more or less how I think of it when making a charisma stealth check to blend into the crowd. Stealth because you're trying to remain unnoticed. Charisma because you need to remain confident and controlled so as to not stand out by appearing nervous and checking for tails or checking if your the one your tailing has noticed you.
 


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