FrogReaver
The most respectful and polite poster ever
Only easy way to make it work is give each class their major save and remove the minor.
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D&D 5E My wish for saving throws
- Thread starter jmucchiello
- Start date
Only easy way to make it work is give each class their major save and remove the minor.
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
Well, it has been a long time since I played 3E with only three saves, so I was literally digging out my player's handbook and reviewing them because suddenly I realized there are really only two save types:
1. Avoidance (Reflex)
2. Resistance (Fort and Will, each in their own fashion)
I came to this when I was thinking how I would distribute the strong and weak saves in 5E, because if I paired ability scores down into 3 saves, I would want a strong and weak represented in each pair. To recap:
Strong saves are: DEX, CON, WIS
Weak saves are: STR, INT, CHA
So, while your "initial concept" paired CON and WIS to create FORT (a logical combination), it merges two strong saves into one.
My "first draft" would be to do these combinations
FORT (CON, CHA)
REFLEX (DEX, INT)
WILL (STR, WIS)
These combinations merge a strong and a weak, as well as a mental and a physical, into the three saves.
Finally, each class would gain a "full" save and a "half" save (use half proficiency, round down) and would use the lower ability score modifier from the pair (I am a tough DM
) instead of the higher score modifier.A feat such as Resilient would provide a +1 ASI and a "half" save. You could combine the half save with the one the character already has (thus, gaining two full saves) or apply it to your remaining save (thus, having one full save and the other two both half saves).
If a class feature gives proficiency in a saving throw, you get a half save in whichever the normal ability score falls under. If you already have half proficiency, it becomes full. If you have full already, you can choose to give half to a different save.
The classes would be (FULL save, HALF save):
Barbarian (FORT, WILL)
Bard (REFLEX, FORT)
Cleric (WILL, FORT)
Druid (WILL, REFLEX)
Fighter (FORT, REFLEX or WILL)
Monk (REFLEX, WILL)
Paladin (FORT, WILL)
Ranger (REFLEX, WILL)
Rogue (REFLEX, FORT)
Sorcerer (FORT, REFLEX)
Warlock (WILL, FORT)
Wizard (WILL, REFLEX)
If you default the Fighter to FORT, REFLEX, you might also notice each save is represented four times as the full save and four times as the half save throughout the classes.
(I am OCD and a Libra, I love this stuff! )
jmucchiello
Hero
If you cut it back to 3 saves, you may as well disconnect it from the classes completely. Just pick one save you are proficient at. Why have a strong and weak save? That gives all characters a "half" save bump compared to the base game. (But I also think the existing classes should say "Choose two of the following three saving throws to be proficient at: x, y, z.")
Combining CON and CHA is a bit odd. You resist bane and banishment by force of body? They are Cha saves in 5e. You still end up in a situation where they need work.
The "natural" combination to me is Fort (Con/Str), Will (Wis/Cha), and Ref(Dex/Int) reflecting their "strength of body", "strength of mind", and "avoiding stuff" nature.
But I would ask that if you want to continue this, create a thread for "Having only 3 saving throw categories" or something rather than continue in this one.
Combining CON and CHA is a bit odd. You resist bane and banishment by force of body? They are Cha saves in 5e. You still end up in a situation where they need work.
The "natural" combination to me is Fort (Con/Str), Will (Wis/Cha), and Ref(Dex/Int) reflecting their "strength of body", "strength of mind", and "avoiding stuff" nature.
But I would ask that if you want to continue this, create a thread for "Having only 3 saving throw categories" or something rather than continue in this one.
jmucchiello
Hero
I'm not looking for realism. I'm looking for mechanical consistency. When you make a new spell, if you have Wisdom (charm) as the saving throw, the reader and DM know immediately whether a Elf has advantage on the spell. And if says Wisdom (compulsion), you know immediately being an elf does not give advantage. Do elves have advantage on Modify Memory wisdom saving throws? Probably not. But that is an interpretation.
In 3E, this was codified in the spell's sub-school. Spells said "Enchantment (charm)" in the spell description. In 5e, it makes more sense to hang this off the saving throw mechanic.
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
You could certainly disconnect it, if you wanted to. I just showed how such a system could be linked to represent the game as it is. Allowing them to simply choose one I think would often result in the full save I have listed, but giving them the option to go another route is fine. THB, it wouldn't matter to me either way.
My preference for full and half saves come from the idea that I think characters should be very good in one way, moderate in another, and also have a vulnerability. It also makes the classes more distinct with more combinations.
We thought of a variant where you can choose two half saves instead of a full save, and I always liked the idea of versatility instead of focus, so to say.
Fortitude isn't just about body IMO. You have fortitude of personality and strength of will. That's just how I see it.
Finally, we don't have to continue it if you don't want. You asked for my thoughts on how I would do it and I answered that as well as sharing my justifications for my ideas. I'm satisfied with that. Thanks for sharing your thoughts as well.
Blue
Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I'm not as enamored with granularity to need to break up the saves like skills ... but it becomes interesting if you have the equivalent of the PHB variant where you can mix and match ability and skills, such as using DEX (Perform) to see how well you juggle or STR (Intimidation).
Because then we could just have a couple different approaches that could apply to multiple ability scores, and the classes could improve those instead of the base saves.
For example, say we had Willpower and Bravery among our saves. Command would go against WIS (Willpower), a Concentration save would be CON (Willpower), a Fear spell is going against WIS (Bravery) while Dragon Fear might be CON (bravery).
Hmm, just doing my example it was hard to come up with skill-type saves that would apply for multiple ability scores, that would need to be considered.
Because then we could just have a couple different approaches that could apply to multiple ability scores, and the classes could improve those instead of the base saves.
For example, say we had Willpower and Bravery among our saves. Command would go against WIS (Willpower), a Concentration save would be CON (Willpower), a Fear spell is going against WIS (Bravery) while Dragon Fear might be CON (bravery).
Hmm, just doing my example it was hard to come up with skill-type saves that would apply for multiple ability scores, that would need to be considered.
jmucchiello
Hero
I think WILLPOWER covers strength of will better than fortitude. The point is you could call them BODY, MIND, and AVOIDANCE instead of FORTITUDE, WILL, and REFLEX. By themselves, fortitude and will are very vague concepts. By tying them to Body and Mind, you remove the vagueness. For example, overcoming Fear: is that inner fortitude, force of will, having great heart, having a brave personality? It's mental and thus it is Will. An hallucingenic poison, is that mental or physical? The poison is physical, so Fortitude.
The pairings make more sense when viewed threw the lens of body vs mind rather just arbitrarily paired.
I started here but I could not get it to work. And as I said, I want these categories for rules clarity purposes. You can still just ask for a Wisdom save with no modifier at the table. These categories are more design time things. Every spell and every character ability and every monster ability would use the categories as appropriately so that there would be no doubt as to whether evasion applies to an effect or whether fey ancestry means you get advantage on a "charm" effect.
But I acknowledge, this is 5.5E or 6E idea. Retrofitting it is a huge task. If I were making a variant 5E (like 5E modern or future) I would put this in.
Stoutstien
lunk
I like this direction. Don't know if I'd fiddle with half saves but the overall feel is better than what it is now by a long shot.Well, it has been a long time since I played 3E with only three saves, so I was literally digging out my player's handbook and reviewing them because suddenly I realized there are really only two save types:
1. Avoidance (Reflex)
2. Resistance (Fort and Will, each in their own fashion)
I came to this when I was thinking how I would distribute the strong and weak saves in 5E, because if I paired ability scores down into 3 saves, I would want a strong and weak represented in each pair. To recap:
Strong saves are: DEX, CON, WIS
Weak saves are: STR, INT, CHA
So, while your "initial concept" paired CON and WIS to create FORT (a logical combination), it merges two strong saves into one.
My "first draft" would be to do these combinations
FORT (CON, CHA)
REFLEX (DEX, INT)
WILL (STR, WIS)
These combinations merge a strong and a weak, as well as a mental and a physical, into the three saves.
Finally, each class would gain a "full" save and a "half" save (use half proficiency, round down) and would use the lower ability score modifier from the pair (I am a tough DM
A feat such as Resilient would provide a +1 ASI and a "half" save. You could combine the half save with the one the character already has (thus, gaining two full saves) or apply it to your remaining save (thus, having one full save and the other two both half saves).
If a class feature gives proficiency in a saving throw, you get a half save in whichever the normal ability score falls under. If you already have half proficiency, it becomes full. If you have full already, you can choose to give half to a different save.
The classes would be (FULL save, HALF save):
Barbarian (FORT, WILL)
Bard (REFLEX, FORT)
Cleric (WILL, FORT)
Druid (WILL, REFLEX)
Fighter (FORT, REFLEX or WILL)
Monk (REFLEX, WILL)
Paladin (FORT, WILL)
Ranger (REFLEX, WILL)
Rogue (REFLEX, FORT)
Sorcerer (FORT, REFLEX)
Warlock (WILL, FORT)
Wizard (WILL, REFLEX)
If you default the Fighter to FORT, REFLEX, you might also notice each save is represented four times as the full save and four times as the half save throughout the classes.
