D&D 5E My wish for saving throws

[DND_Reborn]

I like this direction. Don't know if I'd fiddle with half saves but the overall feel is better than what it is now by a long shot.

Thanks. The half saves are just something I've always liked. We have a homebrew feat, Enduring Soul, from another thread that gives half proficiency in saves.

I think WILLPOWER covers strength of will better than fortitude. The point is you could call them BODY, MIND, and AVOIDANCE instead of FORTITUDE, WILL, and REFLEX. By themselves, fortitude and will are very vague concepts. By tying them to Body and Mind, you remove the vagueness. For example, overcoming Fear: is that inner fortitude, force of will, having great heart, having a brave personality? It's mental and thus it is Will. An hallucingenic poison, is that mental or physical? The poison is physical, so Fortitude.

The pairings make more sense when viewed threw the lens of body vs mind rather just arbitrarily paired.

If that is what makes you happy, cool. I don't see FORT and WILL as vague but we all have our own perspectives.

 

[Blue]

If that is what makes you happy, cool. I don't see FORT and WILL as vague but we all have our own perspectives.

I agree with this. I think FORT, REFLEX and WILL are much less vague then mimicing the ability scores. What makes something a CHR save? Is this illusion an INT save (hint: it's not)? Is getting pushed over a STR save or a CON save? Is fa;;ing due to tremors a STR save or a CON save? Or a DEX save?

I think making the saves the same as the ability scores was a step in streamlining, but I think it ended up removing the need for separate save (a good thing) at the cost of clarity (a bad thing).

 

[jmucchiello]

I agree with this. I think FORT, REFLEX and WILL are much less vague then mimicing the ability scores.

We were actually disagreeing on what goes into Will vs Fortitude. Not whether they are "better" than 6 saves. Or at least that's what I was discussing. dnd4vr put Cha into Fort and Str into Will and I had them the other way.

What makes something a CHR save? Is this illusion an INT save (hint: it's not)? Is getting pushed over a STR save or a CON save? Is fa;;ing due to tremors a STR save or a CON save? Or a DEX save?

I think making the saves the same as the ability scores was a step in streamlining, but I think it ended up removing the need for separate save (a good thing) at the cost of clarity (a bad thing).

Charisma saves could be compulsions, like intimidation, but instead charisma is used in weird places: bane and banishment. 5e is inconsistent about Cha vs Wis for saves.
Intelligence saves should be used for illusions but instead an Int (investigation) skill check is used.
Being pushed or pulled is resisted by Strength.
Maintaining one's balance is Dexterity. As is avoiding area of effect stuff.
Whole body modifications are Constitution: poison, disease, polymorph, petrification, etc.

As for Wis vs Cha, look at is as Con vs Str. Con is a bulwork, a defense. Str is power, active. So as above, Con is used to resist stuff that wants to corrupt the whole body. Str is used to resist stuff that wants to move the body.

Similarly, Wisdom would be used for anything that wants to corrupt the mind: emotion effects, Fear, confusion, charm. Where charisma would be used for stuff that wants to override the mind: compulsions

These are not hard. This is reflected (except the Cha) in my OP.

Maybe detailing what ability is used for what kinds of effects would help. Such a list does not exist in the PHB. But there is this in the DMG:

Strength - Opposing a force that would physically move or bind you
Dexterity - Dodging out of harm's way
Constitution - Enduring a disease, poison , or other hazard that saps vitality
Intelligence - Disbelieving certain illusions and resisting mental assaults that can be refuted with logic, sharp memory, or both
Wisdom - Resisting effects that charm, frighten, or otherwise assault your will power
Charisma - Withstanding effects, such as possession, that would subsume your personality or hurl you to another plane of existence

Maybe I should have led with that.

 

[GMMichael]

But I acknowledge, this is 5.5E or 6E idea. Retrofitting it is a huge task. If I were making a variant 5E (like 5E modern or future) I would put this in.

Or you could just play 3.5 edition. I hear there are some supplements available for it.

I'd like to point out that in 5e (and even back in 3e, actually), saving throws are skills. Specifically, skills with defensive, reactive-only uses. There's a level of redundancy (circularity?) going on when you add sub-categories, like skills to abilities, to something that's already a skill. 5e streamlined (one of the design goals - streamlining) saving throws a bit by treating them more like skills than 3e did (removing the extra table space), but complicated things in the process by making players wonder what the heck an Intelligence, Charisma, or Strength save is for.

 

[jasper]

Save or Die! Save or Die! Bring back Save or Die! Now where is my cane. The nurse is about to serve lunch.

 

[jmucchiello]

Or you could just play 3.5 edition. I hear there are some supplements available for it.

Except I'm the OP who wants MORE saving throw categories, not less. And even though I asked the 3 save stuff to be taken to another thread, I still end up replying to it myself.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Except I'm the OP who wants MORE saving throw categories, not less. And even though I asked the 3 save stuff to be taken to another thread, I still end up replying to it myself.

LOL sorry about that. Once an idea gets started it is hard to stop.

To address your OP, if I ever did something along those lines, I would just tie skills into it somehow. I would not want to complicate the game by introducing new things, but rather try to incorporate existing ones. That might not lend enough variation for you, but that is the approach I would take.

 

[Mistwell]

Probably easier to reintroduce the 3 save system
Fort con and wis
Will Int and cha
Reflex str and Dex

Take the average of the two to get the save modifier. Each class now only gets one ST Prof.

I prefer the more descriptive:

1) Paralyzation, Poison, or Death Magic
2) Rod, Staff, or Wand
3) Petrification or Polymorph
4) Breath Weapon
5) Spell

 

[jmucchiello]

1) Paralyzation, Poison, or Death Magic (CON)
2) Rod, Staff, or Wand (DEX or WIS)
3) Petrification or Polymorph (CON)
4) Breath Weapon (DEX or CON)
5) Spell (Any)

also known as ^^^

 

[GMMichael]

Except I'm the OP who wants MORE saving throw categories, not less. And even though I asked the 3 save stuff to be taken to another thread, I still end up replying to it myself.

Okay, let's tinker a little. Saves are skills. 5e broadened them out to each ability. 3e has six abilities, too. In addition, 3e has damage types, spell schools, some miscellaneous tags if I recall, spell school subtypes...

It's fair to assume that, if there were three more save types in 3e, they would have at least as many points as the bad saves. So those extra columns on a class's progress table are easy to fill out. The harder question is: which saves, STR, INT, or CHA, would be a class's good save(s)?

Next issue: Fort, Ref, and Wil are well defined in 3e. What are Gumption, Ingenuity, and Sass used for? Spells, for one, obviously. I think you're well on your way to deciding which spells would apply to those. You could probably use spells schools (already mentioned?) as a cheat code: illusion spells are Int saves, Charm spells are Cha saves...

Use the GM list that you mentioned for the rest...

Strength - Opposing a force that would physically move or bind you
Dexterity - Dodging out of harm's way
Constitution - Enduring a disease, poison , or other hazard that saps vitality
Intelligence - Disbelieving certain illusions and resisting mental assaults that can be refuted with logic, sharp memory, or both
Wisdom - Resisting effects that charm, frighten, or otherwise assault your will power
Charisma - Withstanding effects, such as possession, that would subsume your personality or hurl you to another plane of existence

Me, I'm not interested in sub-saves beyond one per ability, because saving throws don't come up often enough, and I'd rather be focusing on what my character does proactively, versus reactively.