D&D 5E Super Deadly 5E?

[DND_Reborn]

Well actually this happened during the nights rest. So the wraith went right through the PC on guard duty and had advantage on the prone/sleeping PCs. They were trying to rest in an area closely associated to the Shadowfell. Oh, and in addition the cleric was AWOL.

As far as just resting (again) that's a question of pacing and threat. It was simply a dangerous area. I don't hand out magic items like candy so her AC is 15 and I don't see that improving all that much any time soon.

But they survived. This was supposed to be a relatively easy random encounter, 5th level party vs a single CR 5 monster isn't even a medium encounter based on how I calculate. If I really wanted to challenge them it would have been multiple wraiths, popping in and out of walls. Maybe throw in magical darkness like the encounter that almost took out the monk.

There are a lot of ways to make a deadly encounters in 5E, this one just happened to be a bit more deadly than I had expected.

Oh, nighttime "resting" encounters! I love those when I DM.

I agree, that should have been an easy encounter by my calculations as well. Doing it at night while most of the PCs are sleeping, unarmored, etc. would probably bump it up to a moderate, but anything worse is just a result of poor luck on the party's side IMO.

I think part of the problem I saw when writing the OP was also because I was thinking more in terms of our current game. While no where near Monty Haul, it is pretty liberal when it comes to magic items, etc.

Honestly, I prefer a grittier game where finding a suit of plate mail is still a big deal after 5th level. I tell players I like the 1 gp = $100 USD in modern times to give people an idea of what is wealthy. It works well the the living expenses guidelines, etc. in the PHB. So, that 1500 gp plate armor today would cost about $150,000 USD!!! (or more). Most players' first response is "Holy $hit!!!" So some of the issues will be resolved by keeping the game more low-key.

In the same light I would rather have fewer magic items, but the ones they get are truly prized! Our current DM's philosophy is everything is random. Our prior barbarian (no longer in the group) acquired a greatsword +3 at level 5! Talk about messing with the balance of things! But, the DM rolled it and let it go. Later an NPC warned the barbarian such a powerful item would be sought after and hard to keep... We never found out what happened to that barbarian...

 

[Oofta]

Oh, nighttime "resting" encounters! I love those when I DM.

I agree, that should have been an easy encounter by my calculations as well. Doing it at night while most of the PCs are sleeping, unarmored, etc. would probably bump it up to a moderate, but anything worse is just a result of poor luck on the party's side IMO.

I think part of the problem I saw when writing the OP was also because I was thinking more in terms of our current game. While no where near Monty Haul, it is pretty liberal when it comes to magic items, etc.

Honestly, I prefer a grittier game where finding a suit of plate mail is still a big deal after 5th level. I tell players I like the 1 gp = $100 USD in modern times to give people an idea of what is wealthy. It works well the the living expenses guidelines, etc. in the PHB. So, that 1500 gp plate armor today would cost about $150,000 USD!!! (or more). Most players' first response is "Holy $hit!!!" So some of the issues will be resolved by keeping the game more low-key.

In the same light I would rather have fewer magic items, but the ones they get are truly prized! Our current DM's philosophy is everything is random. Our prior barbarian (no longer in the group) acquired a greatsword +3 at level 5! Talk about messing with the balance of things! But, the DM rolled it and let it go. Later an NPC warned the barbarian such a powerful item would be sought after and hard to keep... We never found out what happened to that barbarian...

Yeah, I've done campaigns where everyone was glowing like a Christmas trees and we had "generous" ability score generation. In some ways it was fun, in others it just made it harder to balance.

My PCs just turned 6th, most of them have a single uncommon magic item. No magic armor, rings or bracers yet. They're pretty broke as well, so no plate armor, etc. I've been pretty stingy, but I prefer PC choices mattering more than their equipment.

But a +3 sword at 5th level? I didn't even think that was possible if you used the random treasure tables in the DMG.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Yeah, I've done campaigns where everyone was glowing like a Christmas trees and we had "generous" ability score generation. In some ways it was fun, in others it just made it harder to balance.

My PCs just turned 6th, most of them have a single uncommon magic item. No magic armor, rings or bracers yet. They're pretty broke as well, so no plate armor, etc. I've been pretty stingy, but I prefer PC choices mattering more than their equipment.

But a +3 sword at 5th level? I didn't even think that was possible if you used the random treasure tables in the DMG.

It was part of the hoard of a young black dragon (I remember because it was the first dragon our party fought). We thought we were facing a green dragon from the intel we got from some captured kobolds... and we thought it was one or maybe two wyrmlings, not a young dragon! Imagine our surprise. Anyway, I remember the DM telling us there was some pretty good loot and he rolled high. Checking the DMG, it must have been a 99 or 00 on the horde table, and then 1-10 on Table H. I do recall it was the only magic item in the horde and since our barbarian was the only one who used a greatsword, she got it.

Incidentally, this was the only PC ever killed in our current campaign that stayed dead (player's choice).

 

[Helldritch]

Luck can be on the players' side sometimes. A +3 sword at 5th level from a young dragon is really lucky.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Luck can be on the players' side sometimes. A +3 sword at 5th level from a young dragon is really lucky.

Until that character mysteriously disappears from the game. We all suspect she was abducted and killed for the sword by a high-level NPC. Sucks, really.

 

[Brotton Goodfellow]

I had good success with imposing injuries if the characters drop to zero and stabilize. Head trauma, broken bones, and even some PTSD-esque penalties. My favourite though is the severe bleed. If a character goes down to zero and has a severe bleed, they automatically fail death saving throws until they are stabilized with a healers kit or magic healing. It hasn’t made the game more deadly (I do that by how I play the monsters and the encounters I create), but it’s made dropping to zero more interesting and less desirable.

 

[Helldritch]

Until that character mysteriously disappears from the game. We all suspect she was abducted and killed for the sword by a high-level NPC. Sucks, really.

I must agree with you. If the DM was not happy with this sword, he should've put something else more balanced. Removing a PC this way is kinda meh...

But at the same time, I can't really judge as I was not there. The one time I had to remove a powerful item from the party was a vorpal sword. IT was too powerful so I had it stolen. It took the PCs about 5 or 6 levels (this brought them at level 16 or so in 1ed) to find it back again. They spent resources and gold to get it back and the fight was really fun. I have been more careful with magic item placement ever since.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I must agree with you. If the DM was not happy with this sword, he should've put something else more balanced. Removing a PC this way is kinda meh...

But at the same time, I can't really judge as I was not there. The one time I had to remove a powerful item from the party was a vorpal sword. IT was too powerful so I had it stolen. It took the PCs about 5 or 6 levels (this brought them at level 16 or so in 1ed) to find it back again. They spent resources and gold to get it back and the fight was really fun. I have been more careful with magic item placement ever since.

Well, to be fair to the DM, he warned us about such things at session 0 (that with high reward can come high risk) and in that light gave the player a chance to give the sword to a powerful lord in exchange for some land and personal favor.

 

[Vendral]

That is exactly they way I run Wraith and other undead that reduces max HP.
We track damage and not current HP.
So your example at my table would be:

Here: (current damage 10, max HP 60)
You get hit for 21 damage, Your damage goes up to 10+21=31, max HP still 60
You roll a DC 14 CON save, Fail your max HP goes down to 39 (60-21) and damage is 31
8 point more damage and you will go down.

My players are aware that is the we do things and it has put some fear in them.
Out of my 6 players 5 of them are ok with it, the 6th doesn't like it but he accepts it.

/Patrik

LOL I think you have things crossed. My interpretation (as I see every DM run it) is better for the PCs, not worse. And you mention critical damage because----???

Here: (current HP 50, max hp 60)
You get hit for 21 damage. Your HP goes down. (Ex. 50 - 21 = 29)
You roll a DC 14 CON save. Succeed: you're fine. Fail: Your MAX HP goes down. (Ex. Max 60 - 21 = 39)

What @S'mon was describing as a possible ruling is:
You get hit.
You roll a DC 14 CON save. Succeed: you're fine. Fail: Your MAX HP goes down. (Ex. Max 60 - 21 = 39)
You take 21 damage was well. (current HP reduced because max HP reduced: HP 39 - 21 = 18).

So, he is suggesting it could be ruled as a double-dip (in essence) in one hit.

 

[DND_Reborn]

That is exactly they way I run Wraith and other undead that reduces max HP.
We track damage and not current HP.
So your example at my table would be:

Here: (current damage 10, max HP 60)
You get hit for 21 damage, Your damage goes up to 10+21=31, max HP still 60
You roll a DC 14 CON save, Fail your max HP goes down to 39 (60-21) and damage is 31
8 point more damage and you will go down.

My players are aware that is the we do things and it has put some fear in them.
Out of my 6 players 5 of them are ok with it, the 6th doesn't like it but he accepts it.

/Patrik

But that isn't the way 5e was designed. The rules aren't "your accumulated damage reaches or exceeds your hit points, you fall unconscious." The game was designed and is meant to be played with damage being subtracted from your current HP. That is why when you reach 0 HP, you fall unconscious and start making death saves. Your system also means temp HP must subtract from your current damage, and allow your "damage taken" to go negative. Other changes would needed as well as you know, I am sure.

If you want to track accumulated damage, your system should track accumulated drain as well. And the Wraith would deal "drain" damage. When your accumulated drain exceeds your max HP, you die. It is the same as 5E, just additive instead of subtractive.

You achieve the same goal just by having the Wraith double-dip the damage as I described, and it will still put the fear into them without having to make other adjustments. But then that is your house-rule and if your players a generally ok with it, that's their choice.