D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[Garthanos]

Now let's switch it up. How do I create a non-magical ranger with a beast companion in 5e? How do I create a shaman who channels all their magical power through their spirit companion (the magic originates from the spirit)? How do I create a sorcerer who doesn't use the same spells as a wizard, and vice versa? How do I get a druid with an animal companion? Why can't I have a druid that can wild shape at-will from level 1? How can I create a character that advances both as a cleric and a paladin at the same time, or fighter and druid? How do I play a vampire at level 1 that's balanced with other characters? Werewolf? How do I make a fighter who can create more and more powerful alchemical items as they advance in levels as a fighter? Can I have a character that has a wolf beast companion, a bear companion, and a hawk companion all at the same time?

Remember this latest edition is a skeleton edition its not supposed to be anything approaching complete.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I disagree. Because of the way 4e is set up, I can't make a character that wholly focuses on social encounters or exploration. I am required to be a combat beast. Someone above said something about control spells and a dedicated support for a total pacifist cleric. But I'm talking about a non-combat character. Someone who doesn't fight, heal, support, or control - who, instead, uses trickery to avoid combat.

There are illusion and control powers that don’t actually involve fighting by any rational assessment, for one thing.
For another, you can literally just...use skills, utilities, rituals, martial practices, item enchantments, feat benefits, etc, to do all those things, and just not use any combat powers.

Just like how you don’t have to useyour weapon proficiencies of combat-oriented class features in 5e.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Cool, but I'm not talking about "in combat." I'm talking about out of combat - using trickery to avoid initiative rolls. I don't want to trick someone into hitting an ally, get an ally to make a free shot, or things like that. I want: combat = lose condition.

You can use those out of combat, and there are other tools than powers that are built for use out of combat.

 

[Garthanos]

Personally I am just fond of the lazy lord ones (I tend to find them tempting) which I felt seemed more like what a charlatan trickster might use if pressed into desperate situation and I thought Slimy Transformation worked fine as a momentary hypnosis of making someone act like a frog even. So a bunch cast as minor illusions and hypnotics used cleverly worked but yes the wind wall magic is a fine no damage at-will.

Hold portal is an strange ritual pretty much a not ritual reminds me of an instant cast martial practice where you jam a door ... its explicitly uses a Healing surge for its casting cost and is a one action. The wizard doesnt have a lot of HS but do not need many especially if they are not doing much combat.

 

[Hussar]

Maybe this will help.

4e powers are samey to me is an objective fact.

4e powers are not samey to you is an objective fact.

What makes each of us individually determine whether 4e powers are samey to us is subjective.

Hopefully that helps explain the issue.

But, when questioned as to WHY you set the bar for samey at the point where 4e feels samey to you, but, not 5e which appears to be at least the same level of "samey", you refuse to actually answer. You simply dodge behind "it's subjective". Which, at that point, makes the whole thing meaningless.

 

[Hussar]

Then you are still not understanding what samey means. Pointing out a difference doesn't mean something isn't samey.

The irony here is really funny.

"A car is different from an elephant"

Nope, they are samey. Pointing out differences doesn't make them different.

 

[FrogReaver]

The irony here is really funny.

"A car is different from an elephant"

Nope, they are samey. Pointing out differences doesn't make them different.

Yea you still don't get it.

The issue - the analogy isn't saying a car is different from an elephant.

 

[pemerton]

This was addressed already and pointed out that

1. The magnitude of the differences in effects played a role (5e had greater differences)
2. The abilities with effects in 5e were totally unique to the class that had them (4e powers effects were typically shared across many classes)
3. The different recharge rate cycles for classes helped 5e feel less samey than 4e.

Which is really the problem - the claim keeps getting made that 5e is directly comparable to 4e in the ways that matter (to me) and it's simply not the case. 4e = XYZ. 5e = ABC. XYZ != ABC.

Re (3) I've already commented somewhere in the neighbourhood of your post (9 posts further on, I think, but written before I read and replied to this post) that to me that seems to be the gist of it.

(2) I don't really get - a common complaint I saw about 4e is that fighters can't be archers so you have to be a ranger, which suggests greater difference across classes. Whereas in 5e many classes can overlap in function etc and (as was discussed recently in one of these threads) there is less niche protection.

(1) I think I actively disagree with. Upthread I asked where the fighter AoE abilities are in 5e, and no one has answered yet. Or the analogue of a rogue's blinding barrage. Or Commander's Strike. Or etc etc.

I would add a quasi-quantitative assessment of the uniqueness of the abilities the classes get as well. Class to class 4e powers TYPICALLY weren't that unique from each other. Abilities like reckless attack and action surge and divine smite and uncanny dodge all are extremely different from one another.

And Twin Strike, Tide of Iron, Reaping Strike, Holy Strike (does radiant damage so burns undead), Commander's Strike, the rogues one that lets you move (Deft strike?), Scorching Burst, Thunderwave, Eyebite, others I haven't listed - all are quite different. And at this point I can hardly be cherry picking given I've listed 8 powers from the 40 at wills in the PHB.

 

[pemerton]

I would like to see more powers with creative out-of-combat utility. For example, I would love an eyebite that didn't inflict damage, only blindness. It would be very useful for stealth, and I wouldn't have to torture the victim.

Do you find that your 4e playes incorporate their powers in their declarations of actions in skill challenges? In this case, for instance, using an Arcana check to impose a brief period of blindness without inflicting damage, which would then give advantage to someone's follow up Stealth check.

EDIT: Unsurprisingly, I've been ninja-ed on this point by @Manbearcat.

 

[Xetheral]

First, you can literally do the above scenario in 4e. Second, 5e has a bad habit of relegating the rogue and the other classes without strong access to magic yet who are supposed to be good in non-combat situations to the sidelines starting around levels where you can pull off such plans. Teleportation, scrying, etc.; caster tools, and the so-called skill expert rogue has none of that available to them. In 4e, skills and skill challenges are much more important, and the rogue, if they desire, can get that teleportation and scrying and other tools with the cost of one single feat (and 4e characters get a whole lot of feats).

How can you teleport the party and the NPC out in the first round of combat in 4e? Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, rituals take too long to cast, and teleportation via powers is limited to short range. Was quick-cast long-range teleportation added back in to the edition after I stopped playing?