D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[FrogReaver]

(2) I don't really get - a common complaint I saw about 4e is that fighters can't be archers so you have to be a ranger, which suggests greater difference across classes.

It suggests one way in which 4e fighters and rangers are more different than 5e fighters and rangers. If we were talking sameyness on the sole level of melee/ranged combat for fighters and rangers then 4e would be less samey than 5e. But that rather misses the point - as the argument isn't that 5e is less samey than 4e in all possible ways (which is why such statements don't disprove my position or further the conversation).

When I say samey I'm talking about samey as the aggregate of all differences in the edition and the corresponding weights I would give those differences. In that case 4e as a whole is much more samey than 5e.

Whereas in 5e many classes can overlap in function etc and (as was discussed recently in one of these threads) there is less niche protection.

The functional niches are less defined in 5e than 4e. But truth is that 4e only really had 4 functional niches right? As soon as you placed 2 leaders or 2 defenders or 2 controllers or 2 strikers into a group you no longer had niche protection.

So while 5e has less defined niches in terms of function they have pretty defined mechanical niches.

(1) I think I actively disagree with. Upthread I asked where the fighter AoE abilities are in 5e, and no one has answered yet. Or the analogue of a rogue's blinding barrage. Or Commander's Strike. Or etc etc.

Why does that matter?

 

[pemerton]

I disagree. I'll list several 5e spells I consider very different:

Firebolt
Silent Image
Plane Shift
Bless
Goodberry
Resurrection
Arcane Eye
Clone
Mordinkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Eternalness
Fabricate
Modify Memory

These types of spells are why I wonder 4e power more samey than 5e spells. I would liked to have seen more 4e utility powers that did things like those.

In 4e Silent Image (I can't remember it's 4e name), Plane Shift/Planar Portal, Raise Dead, Arcane Eye, and Hallowed Temple are all rituals. I've seen them all in play except the illusion one which is why I can't remember it's name.

There are various attack powers that are analogous to Firebolt.

Our paladin has a power analogous to Bless, called Wrath of the Gods.

Goodberry might be in a book somewhere but I've never seen it used (nor in AD&D). I don't think 4e has a version of Clone. It has a Make Whole ritual (which I've seen used) but I don't know about Fabricate.

Modify Memory is something I've seen attempted but failed in a skill challenge, using possession as the vehicle for affecting the target's memory.

I can also see, however, how encounters in other styles might de-emphasize the differences between 4e powers. If the PCs elect to attack at maximum range, for (a very simple) example, many of the movement-related special effects of 4e powers may be irrelevant. (E.g. pushing a target 3 squares may be useless at long range if it doesn't change the target's ability to reach full cover on its turn). When encounter specifics cause the special effects of 4e powers to be less relevant, the practical differences between 4e powers start to blur.

I have run such encounters in 4e. In some cases, the main issue is not power use but (eg) that the fighter is pretty terrible with a bow. In other cases, the main issue has been how can we get the fighter into close contact with our desired target? These can be fine, and indeed fun, but I wouldn't recommend 4e as a good system for a table that primarily wants to run long-range skirmishes.

As an additional complication caused by differing playstyles, I note that your example encounter appears to assume that differences between powers should be evaluated based on their affect on an encounter after initiative is rolled. In playstyles that instead emphasize the strategic layer of D&D, the relevant question may instead be to what extent 4e powers differ in their ability to influence, before initiative is rolled, how, where, when, and whether an encounter takes place.

In 4e, this would normally the domain of skill challenge resolution.

If someone wants to start a thread about some of the challenges in 4e of mediating between non-combat and combat resolution that might be interesting. It's a widely-discussed issue on these boards among 4e players/GMs. I don't think following it up in this thread will be super-productive, but we could try.

4e nerfed a lot of old edition options. You couldn't fly whereever.

Just on this - the PCs in my game fly eveywhere on Phantom Steeds or in their Thundercloud Tower (which also now has planeshift capabilties since some djinns upgraded it.)

Phantom Steeds, in particular, is essentially at-will (only 70 gp) once you get it (it's 6th level), though reliably getting flight (40+ check result) requires being higher level than that. But a table which wanted fight to be ubiquitous could very trivially lower the check result needed without breaking anything else in the game.

 

[pemerton]

Perhaps. But due to restrictions on rituals, in 2 years of playing 5e, I never saw one cast - not a single one. Time and gold always prevents my players from using them. My group may have been an outlier. I don't know - but when playing other editions, illusions, etc. are a staple of my groups' tactics for avoiding combat and conserving resources.

This is something I find absolutely remarkable coming from a poster who says how important s/he (? sorry - don't know your pronouns) finds non-combat effects and the diversity of spells in other edtions of D&D.

The first time I saw a ritual used in 4e was in either the first or second session of play. (I remembe in the second session Make Whole was used; but there may also have been something in the first session that I'm forgetting these 10 years later - maybe Animal Messenger?.) Ritual uses was ubiquitous. The costs of 1st level rituals are trivial (10 gp by default). The costs of higher-level ones also quickly become trivial as those higher levels are reached and surpassed.

Except I'm still forced to take attack powers.

Use them to open up options in skill challenges.

Putting this togehter with the other post I've quoted, I get the impression that you dind't exploit all the features of 4e.

Is not engaging the non-combat mechanics of the game a flaw in the game, or a case of user error? I think there has to be at least some of the second thing involved, doesn't there?

 

[pemerton]

Powers still only have a duration of an encounter or five minutes.

Disguise Self is an exception to this. Are there others? I can't remember off the top of my head.

@doctorbadwolf, who said "I’m almost certain there are classes with daily powers that last longer than that"

And reading on, I've been ninja-ed by @Teemu.

 

[Teemu]

How can you teleport the party and the NPC out in the first round of combat in 4e? Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, rituals take too long to cast, and teleportation via powers is limited to short range. Was quick-cast long-range teleportation added back in to the edition after I stopped playing?

Teleportation rituals in 4e create portals. Those portals stay open, and the duration is determined by the ritual caster’s skill check. Thus, you can open the portal, go through, and force the target through the portal back to where you came from.

 

[pemerton]

How can you teleport the party and the NPC out in the first round of combat in 4e? Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, rituals take too long to cast, and teleportation via powers is limited to short range. Was quick-cast long-range teleportation added back in to the edition after I stopped playing?

Here's one approach: open an Arcane Gate (10th level wizard utility, minor action to create and sustain).

Someone steps through the Gate (move), picks up the PC (some combinatin of minor and/or standard), then spends an Action Point to step back through the Gate.

Other PCs defend the gate for the rest of the round against attempts by NPCs to come through it. Then the gate closes and the PCs move out.

The gate requires line of sight to the NPC, but that can be done by eg opening a door.

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Here's another option: A warlock sneakes into the room, gets close to the NPC, and then makes an Arcana check to improvise Warlock's Leap (6 sq non-line-of-sight-required teleport, personal only) to act on another target instead, sending the NPC to some useful PC-controlled hidey-hold within 30' (eg on the other side of a wall, beneath the floor, etc). Then sneaks out again.

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Here's another option, though it depends on an ability that is higher than 10th level: use True Portal to open a portal to where the NPC is. The duration is 1, 3 or 5 rounds depending on success with an Arcana check.

By my reading, a portal ritual defaults to one-way, so you would need to make an Arcana check to modify the ritual to have it be two-way. Having successfully created a two-way portal you step through, rescue the NPC, and step back, letting the portal close behind you.

Teleportation rituals in 4e create portals. Those portals stay open, and the duration is determined by the ritual caster’s skill check. Thus, you can open the portal, go through, and force the target through the portal back to where you came from.

I just saw your post. As I said, I'm not sure whether a 4e portal ritual is 2-way by default or needs an Arcana check to vary it. But anyway I think we're pretty much on the same page.

Arcane Gate has been hugely important in our 4e game - probably the most impactful of all the PCs' utility powers. The character who uses it started out as a wizard and then rebuilt as an invoker at 15th level following a life-change event, but spent the feat to keep Arcane Gate because it's just that good.

 

[Garthanos]

Here's one approach: open an Arcane Gate (10th level
By my reading, a portal ritual defaults to one-way, so you would need to make an Arcana check to modify the ritual to have it be two-way. Having successfully created a two-way portal you step through, rescue the NPC, and step back, letting the portal close behind you.

I had ritualists using arcana to finish partially done rituals or even try to cast ones where they had to improvise some of the ingredients because they didnt have the correct ones

 

[Garthanos]

Had a group with three players all three were ritualist characters not one had it in their base class... so I definitely made rituals part of the story.

 

[Hussar]

Yea you still don't get it.

The issue - the analogy isn't saying a car is different from an elephant.

I don't get it because there is nothing to get.

No one is questioning that you find the differences between powers in 4e to small and thus feel samey to you. That's your feeling and you're more than entitled to it.

What's being questioned is what's your point? If you set the bar that low, why do you not set the bar that low for all D&D games? And, if pointing out differences doesn't actually matter, then well, you've basically created an unassailable position for yourself. That's rather convenient. Not only do you get to declare yourself right, but, you get to ignore any counter points.

How can you possibly claim that this is arguing in good faith if you refuse to accept any counter arguments?

 

[Garthanos]

Just on this - the PCs in my game fly eveywhere on Phantom Steeds or in their Thundercloud Tower (which also now has planeshift capabilties since some djinns upgraded it.)

Phantom Steeds, in particular, is essentially at-will (only 70 gp) once you get it (it's 6th level), though reliably getting flight (40+ check result) requires being higher level than that. But a table which wanted fight to be ubiquitous could very trivially lower the check result needed without breaking anything else in the game.

I flavored my steads as the Wild Hunt mounts on one character I was trying to figure out how to enrich a certain theme so they could have hounds.