D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[doctorbadwolf]

There does seem to be a bit of a tendency towards when we ignored the non-combat resources and non-combat resolution systems we didn't have enough non-combat in our games.

But I still find it puzzling!

But you'll be forced to pick Blinding Barrage and be a supernatural shuriken-throwing ninja!

True, they could have made MC power swapping a bit less tedious.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Counter arguments that aren't addressing the point will not and should not be accepted.

The bar I set for samey isn't a low bar. It's a fairly high bar. 4e powers in the general sense meet that bar for me. 5e abilities in general do not meet that bar.

Now if you want to talk about elements in 5e I find samey. Attack cantrips in 5e feel samey to me in much the same way 4e powers do.

Okay, I really want to know your answer to question, and I suspect it simply got lost in the Blinding Barrage of other posts and subtopics.

Can you explain your position that there being some powers in each class that aren’t samey, doesn’t make powers in general, or classes in general, not samey?

 

[Xetheral]

Teleportation rituals in 4e create portals. Those portals stay open, and the duration is determined by the ritual caster’s skill check. Thus, you can open the portal, go through, and force the target through the portal back to where you came from.

I was under the impression that teleportation rituals in 4e were one-way. Do you have a page cite specifying any that are two-way?

Even if they are two-way, however, if you read @Manbearcat's encounter example, the NPC isn't free to be picked up to be carried through a portal.

Regardless of the specific workability of the example I gave, I still stand by my assertion that 4e powers are designed mainly for winning fights, not bypassing them, and that this contributes to the powers feeling "samey" for some posters. The example was intended to be illustrative, not dispositive.

Here's one approach: open an Arcane Gate (10th level wizard utility, minor action to create and sustain).

Someone steps through the Gate (move), picks up the PC (some combinatin of minor and/or standard), then spends an Action Point to step back through the Gate.

Other PCs defend the gate for the rest of the round against attempts by NPCs to come through it. Then the gate closes and the PCs move out.

The gate requires line of sight to the NPC, but that can be done by eg opening a door.

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Here's another option: A warlock sneakes into the room, gets close to the NPC, and then makes an Arcana check to improvise Warlock's Leap (6 sq non-line-of-sight-required teleport, personal only) to act on another target instead, sending the NPC to some useful PC-controlled hidey-hold within 30' (eg on the other side of a wall, beneath the floor, etc). Then sneaks out again.

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Here's another option, though it depends on an ability that is higher than 10th level: use True Portal to open a portal to where the NPC is. The duration is 1, 3 or 5 rounds depending on success with an Arcana check.

By my reading, a portal ritual defaults to one-way, so you would need to make an Arcana check to modify the ritual to have it be two-way. Having successfully created a two-way portal you step through, rescue the NPC, and step back, letting the portal close behind you.

I just saw your post. As I said, I'm not sure whether a 4e portal ritual is 2-way by default or needs an Arcana check to vary it. But anyway I think we're pretty much on the same page.

Arcane Gate has been hugely important in our 4e game - probably the most impactful of all the PCs' utility powers. The character who uses it started out as a wizard and then rebuilt as an invoker at 15th level following a life-change event, but spent the feat to keep Arcane Gate because it's just that good.

My example of bypassing the example encounter was not referring to short-range teleportation, which merely moves the encounter. Also, the NPC is not free to be picked up as per the details of @Manbearcat's example.

Do you have a page cite for the rules for modifying rituals? If they are open-ended enough to permit modification on the fly that does indeed make them more able to replicate the strategic options available in other editions (although casting time is still an issue).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I was under the impression that teleportation rituals in 4e were one-way. Do you have a page cite specifying any that are two-way?

Even if they are two-way, however, if you read @Manbearcat's encounter example, the NPC isn't free to be picked up to be carried through a portal.

Regardless of the specific workability of the example I gave, I still stand by my assertion that 4e powers are designed mainly for winning fights, not bypassing them, and that this contributes to the powers feeling "samey" for some posters. The example was intended to be illustrative, not dispositive.



My example of bypassing the example encounter was not referring to short-range teleportation, which merely moves the encounter. Also, the NPC is not free to be picked up as per the details of @Manbearcat's example.

Do you have a page cite for the rules for modifying rituals? If they are open-ended enough to permit modification on the fly that does indeed make them more able to replicate the strategic options available in other editions (although casting time is still an issue).

At this point it seems kinda like you’re arguing from a conclusion.

 

[FrogReaver]

Okay, I really want to know your answer to question, and I suspect it simply got lost in the Blinding Barrage of other posts and subtopics.

Can you explain your position that there being some powers in each class that aren’t samey, doesn’t make powers in general, or classes in general, not samey?

Sure. Samey on that level is an aggregate - weighted average type situation. A few powers significantly different (extremely not samey) aren't enough to compensate for a large number of significantly samey powers when talking about the general "power" or "class" sameyness.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Short range teleportation only moves the encounter if you then get caught before escaping the facility.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sure. Samey is an aggregate - weighted average type situation. A few powers significantly different aren't enough to compensate for a large number of significantly samey powers when talking about the general "power" or "class" sameyness.

Okay, respectfully, that doesn’t...grok. If there are options right there that won’t feel samey in play, why does it matter that Firebolt also exists in all its painfully boring glory?

 

[FrogReaver]

Okay, respectfully, that doesn’t...grok. If there are options right there that won’t feel samey in play, why does it matter that Firebolt also exists in all its painfully boring glory?

Respectfully - a few options not feeling samey in play doesn't make the other 1000 feel not samey in play.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

S

Respectfully - a few options not feeling samey in play doesn't make the other 1000 feel not samey in play.

but you could just use the ones that you don’t find samey.
I don’t understand how the presence of options you aren’t using impacts how the game feels.

 

[FrogReaver]

S

but you could just use the ones that you don’t find samey.
I don’t understand how the presence of options you aren’t using impacts how the game feels.

Their mere presence in the system is enough to impact how the game feels.