D&D 5E Have we rebalanced the Champion Yet?

[Garthanos]

My training regimen concept increases the access of any subclass to the maneuver system with a choice... making it less sensitive to the difference anyway.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I disagree you are favoring simplicity which among other things is unrealistic. LOL look look I can play like a simulationist.

Not at all. In 5e, fighters do more damage than wizards, does 5e favor the fighter over the wizard?

 

[Garthanos]

Not at all. In 5e, fighters do more damage than wizards, does 5e favor the fighter over the wizard?

It is pretty tricky you just jumped into area effects vs single target how are we measuring that fireball affecting 9 enemies in terms of damage?

When we are measuring fighter vs fighter seems like much easier apples to apples comparison.

 

[TwoSix]

IOW, an optimized Champion and an Optimised Battlemaster, both played skillfully, the Champion should do more damage.

Fair. Then we are saying different things, as I feel the opposite.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Here's why I'm against a buff:

1. Not being a finite resource is a benefit you can't easily put a number on. No matter what, the Champion can always crit-fish. No Champion will ever say, "Crap, I wish I hadn't used my Improved Critical tokens on those owlbears, because I could really use them against this hill giant!" Sure, on average, the Champion will do less damage. But sometimes, Improved Crit will fire off six times, typically when the wizard hooked you up with Greater Invisibility, or the bard landed his Faerie Fire. Look at it as trading some of your mean for longer tails.

2. Remarkable Athlete is also hard to quantify. The Initiative bonus alone is worth it. The earlier in the round you go, the more likely something is dead before it can hurt you or a party member again. The other non-proficient checks are gravy.

3. 2nd Fighting Style is great, and can't be downplayed. Our Champion has both Archery and Great Weapon fighting. That weapon style translates into a 20%-25% base damage improvement over not having it.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

1. Not being a finite resource is a benefit you can't easily put a number on. No matter what, the Champion can always crit-fish. No Champion will ever say, "Crap, I wish I hadn't used my Improved Critical tokens on those owlbears, because I could really use them against this hill giant!" Sure, on average, the Champion will do less damage. But sometimes, Improved Crit will fire off six times, typically when the wizard hooked you up with Greater Invisibility, or the bard landed his Faerie Fire. Look at it as trading some of your mean for longer tails.

This. Even more when you dont get to play regularly.

Its all psychological, but one group I play in meet like once per 6 weeks and the DM dont force the end of the session to be long or short rest, we end at 23h anyway. So there's no telling if I'll get to regain my spent resources during a session. Not having a single spell or superiority die for 3 months in real life, even if its only to actual sessions, is painful.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

They could if they remembered the superiority dice.

You are positing a hypothetical inexperienced player who cannot remember to roll an extra damage die whenever they hit, which happens on ~60-70% of attacks, but could remember to roll an extra damage die whenever they hit on a 19, which happens on 5% of attacks.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Sure, but by that standard, they're also not going to care that you've buffed it, and if it makes you happy to buff it, why not?

True... but to me it seems an awful lot of work for something that has a pretty good chance of not actually being a problem and completely unnecessary. But if Xeviat wants to spend their time doing it, more power to them. They should just be prepared to have to possible re-do or remove all their work later on once the PCs are established and its discovered just how much balancing does or doesn't actually need to occur.

That's why I always comment in threads like this to not bother to white-room balance before the fact.

 

[Xeviat]

At 3rd level, the Champion gets +1 to crit range. Because crits are not x2 damage, this is weaker than +1 to hit. This is the only thing they get.

Would you spend a feat for +1 crit range and nothing else?

 

[NotAYakk]

At 3rd level, the Champion gets +1 to crit range. Because crits are not x2 damage, this is weaker than +1 to hit. This is the only thing they get.

Would you spend a feat for +1 crit range and nothing else?

Yes, on a crit-fisher build.

Which the rest of the Champion chassis isn't.