D&D 5E Have we rebalanced the Champion Yet?

[fearsomepirate]

You are positing a hypothetical inexperienced player who cannot remember to roll an extra damage die whenever they hit, which happens on ~60-70% of attacks, but could remember to roll an extra damage die whenever they hit on a 19, which happens on 5% of attacks.

Critting on a 19 isn't a choice. If I see the Champion roll a 19, if he forgets that's a crit, I remind him, just like I might remind him to add his CON mod to his hit dice or his proficiency to his attack bonus. By contrast, my BM player in one of my other games is quite experienced, but he's prone to analysis paralysis and not using a resource because there might be a better use for it later.

A few highly specialized builds don’t make a feat worthwhile in general, though. Nor a level 3 (the most important) subclass level.

Don't forget about party dynamics. The Champion's crit chance with advantage is 19%, so any party worth it salt should be trying to make sure he has it. Champion/Rogue builds are quite good at getting advantage, and deal rather savage critical hits.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

doc..are you stating the subclass does not work, without the benefit of feats or M/C-ing?

Also, given that nearly 50% of characters use feats on DDB, and that percentage grew from the 2018 figure, can we put a moratorium on this argument, being peddled, ad nauseum?
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1st, that ain’t what I said. What I said was the features have to work by themselves, not as part of an optimised multiclass build that relies on feats. The champion only works because its a Fighter. The level 3 is garbage compared to every other fighter subclass.

2nd, even that ddb data still shows over half of users not taking feats. That absolutely still means game elements have to function completely without feats.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

So you are positing a hypothetical DM who will remind this player that a 19 is a critical hit, but will not remind them that that they can spend superiority dice when they hit.

It's the DM's job to inform the players if their attacks hit/crit. It's not a case of reminding. It's not the DM's job to constantly ask players if they want to use a class ability.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

By contrast, my BM player in one of my other games is quite experienced...

Thus not the sort of player we are talking about.

It's the DM's job to inform the players if their attacks hit/crit. It's not a case of reminding. It's not the DM's job to constantly ask players if they want to use a class ability.

But it is the DM's job to teach the game to inexperienced players. If a player is new to the game and keeps forgetting about a class ability, not reminding them about it is the best way to ensure that they will continue to forget about that class ability in perpetuity.

You can call me contrary, but I am skeptical that a subclass using up valuable page space in the PHB -- and arguably the most iconic version of the most iconic D&D class, at that -- was written solely for new players at tables where nobody cares enough about them to help them learn. Written to be simple to play? Yes, obviously. Written to have no other purpose, ignorable by anyone not in those specific circumstances? Dubious. What's more, even if this is the case... it still doesn't follow that the subclass should be underpowered.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Incidentally, what are people's thoughts on the balance of the brute and the weapon master? They were written to indirectly rebalance the champion, but by my back-of-envelope math they seem to have overcorrected somewhat: an extra die of damage on every attack very quickly gets away from the baseline set by the battlemaster. Don't get me wrong, conceptually the weapon master is exactly what I want to the champion to be. But maybe a smaller damage bonus is in order? Thoughts?

 

[Todd Roybark]

The champion only works because its a Fighter. The level 3 is garbage compared to every other fighter subclass.

Feats clearly can synergize with the increased Crit range, which enhance the features power.

I asked for clarification as, prior to the Hexblade and Oath of Conquest subclasses, only the Champion received this boon.

A hypothetical monk subclass, that granted the monk a 19-20 Crit range on all attacks made that round, is not, I think ‘garbage’.

Power creep, as always has occurred. Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, and Absorb Elements boost the Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight.

The Hexblade sort of steps on the Champions toes by being able to roughly keep up in number of attacks thru Eldritch Blast, and Crit on a 19-20 and add their Proficiency bonus to damage, for 1 minute per short rest, against a singular foe.

How would you feel about a Champion adding their Proficiency bonus to damage on a critical hit?

What I find to be garbage is that the Sword of Sharpness’ julienne fries making power, only triggers on a natural 20, and not a critical hit. Otherwise, if the sword proc’d on a crit, a Champion with a Sword of Sharpness would be a formidable foe.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Thus not the sort of player we are talking about.


But it is the DM's job to teach the game to inexperienced players. If a player is new to the game and keeps forgetting about a class ability,

...then I would direct them to a different class, such as Champion.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Feats clearly can synergize with the increased Crit range, which enhance the features power.

This is the biggest flaw in Champion IMO. A bit of rules knowledge can make a far more effective champion (e.g. half orc greataxe GWM), which runs contrary to the "training wheels" concept. And the doubled crit range makes the Champion well worth a 3 level dip.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Weapon Specialization in 1e Unearthed Arcana, did the same thing to the ‘training wheels’, Fighter class.

A half orc fighter with 18/98 Str and Double Weapon Specialization in the Two Handed Sword and Short Sword, ( in case you did not have the 3’ space needed to wield the Two Handed sword), was no longer the training wheel class either.

Let’s face it you typically only need training wheels once.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Let’s face it you typically only need training wheels once.

Which is, to a degree, the point. The Champion is FREE. If you want to progress to something more advanced you need to give WotC some money.