D&D 5E Have we rebalanced the Champion Yet?

[Xeviat]

Yes, on a crit-fisher build.

Which the rest of the Champion chassis isn't.

I don't think it's at all comparable to a feat. It would be a half-feat at best.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Would you spend a feat for +1 crit range and nothing else?

Except a Champion is not spending a feat, are they?

If you feel the Battlemaster 3rd level ability is worth a feat and 1/2 compared to the Martial Adept feat, and the Champion gets approximately 1/2 a feat worth of power; then give the Champion either a free feat, or the equivalent of the Martial Adept feat.

The Elven Accuracy feat, is +1 to a range of ability scores, and Super Advantage.

Is Elven Accuracy too weak, in your estimation? Would you replace Super Advantage with being able to Crit on a 19, (given you deem it only worth half a feat)?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yes, on a crit-fisher build.

Which the rest of the Champion chassis isn't.

Even then I’d want to see more at level 3.

or on a feat.

hell, I’d add that to weapon master and only see it as a good feat at that point.

 

[NotAYakk]

Except a Champion is not spending a feat, are they?

If you feel the Battlemaster 3rd level ability is worth a feat and 1/2 compared to the Martial Adept feat, and the Champion gets approximately 1/2 a feat worth of power; then give the Champion either a free feat, or the equivalent of the Martial Adept feat.

The Elven Accuracy feat is +1 to a range of ability scores, and Super Advantage.

Is Elven Accuracy too weak, in your estimation? Would you replace Super Advantage with being able to Crit on a 19, (given you deem it only worth half a feat)?

Elven Accuracy is also awesome on a crit-fisher build.

If (1) a large % of your damage is encounter/daily after a hit, (2) you have a 19-20 crit range, (3) you get advantage easily, (4) you have elven accuracy, each of these multiplies with each other, and (5) you can swing a lot, these all scale really well.

Gloom 3 is "an extra swing per action".
Fighter 2 is "two actions".
Champion 3 or Hex 1 is "19-20 crit range".
Elven Accuracy is "make advantage awesome".
Samurai 3 or Assasin 3 is "easy advantage".
Paladin 2 or Warlock or BM or whispers or ... "rest-based damage budget that can crit after you hit".

These all multiply together.

In these cases, a full class level to get a 19-20 crit range is worth taking. And an ASI (hence a feat) is a middling level ability.

The real trick is getting these multipling components online faster.

For a crit fisher:
Action surge: x2
Extra attack: x2, Gloom (3rd attack): x1.5 (or vice versa).
19-20 crit range: x2 crits.
Advantage: 1.9x crits.
Trip-vantage: x1.43 crits.

2x*2x*1.5x*2x*1.9x*1.43x = 32.604x crits

Strip out a component, like 19-20 crit range, and your crit count is basically halved.

You'll note that even on this build, trip-vantage is not as key as 19-20 crit range.

You go from 0.05 crits/round to 1.63 crits/round. This 2.6x's the ROI on per-encounter/per-day smite-likes.

Now, hexblade has the problem that the combo is 1/day. The alternative is Champion.

So yes, this build would probably burn a feat for 19-20 crit range, especially if it could get a casting level with that ASI instead of having to take Champion 3. Ie, Gloom 4,5 is an ASI, an extra attack, and a caster level. That could be better than Champion 3,4,5 is for this build.

Normally this build needs 1 feat (elven accuracy). With 19-20 crit range as a feat it needs 2.

Fighter 2/Gloom 3/Paladin 2 is the base. Now we need 2 feats and extra attack, and as many spell casting levels as we can get, or Fighter 3, one feat.

Champion 3/Gloom 5/Paladin 2 with Elven Accuracy is online; it has caster level 3. It then goes sorcerer X to fuel the smites.

Fighter 2/Gloom 4/Paladin 5 is 1 level later, and has caster level 4. It can go Paladin 6 for caster level 5 and saving throw aura, then sorcerer X.

Champion 3/Gloom 5/Paladin 2/Sorcerer X=10 is caster level 13.
Fighter 2/Gloom 4/Paladin 6/Sorcerer X=8 is caster level 13, and has cha to all saves. So this traded is 1 feat for "+cha to all saves for myself and all allies within 10'", which is a pretty solid trade.

Crap, I forgot easy advantage.

Samurai 3/Gloom 4/Paladin 6/Sorcerer X=7 is caster level 13, and has cha to all saves. So this traded is 1 feat for "+cha to all saves for myself and all allies within 10'", which is a pretty solid trade.

It comes online at Samurai 3/Gloom 4/Paladin 5 (level 12). It probably starts as a single-classed Paladin, and needs 13 str/wis/dex/cha to multiclass (ouch).

TL;DR: I can see builds that would take 19-20 crit range as a full feat.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Elven Accuracy is also awesome on a crit-fisher build.

If (1) a large % of your damage is encounter/daily after a hit, (2) you have a 19-20 crit range, (3) you get advantage easily, (4) you have elven accuracy, each of these multiplies with each other, and (5) you can swing a lot, these all scale really well.

Gloom 3 is "an extra swing per action".
Fighter 2 is "two actions".
Champion 3 or Hex 1 is "19-20 crit range".
Elven Accuracy is "make advantage awesome".
Samurai 3 or Assasin 3 is "easy advantage".
Paladin 2 or Warlock or BM or whispers or ... "rest-based damage budget that can crit after you hit".

These all multiply together.

In these cases, a full class level to get a 19-20 crit range is worth taking. And an ASI (hence a feat) is a middling level ability.

The real trick is getting these multipling components online faster.

For a crit fisher:
Action surge: x2
Extra attack: x2, Gloom (3rd attack): x1.5 (or vice versa).
19-20 crit range: x2 crits.
Advantage: 1.9x crits.
Trip-vantage: x1.43 crits.

2x*2x*1.5x*2x*1.9x*1.43x = 32.604x crits

Strip out a component, like 19-20 crit range, and your crit count is basically halved.

You'll note that even on this build, trip-vantage is not as key as 19-20 crit range.

You go from 0.05 crits/round to 1.63 crits/round. This 2.6x's the ROI on per-encounter/per-day smite-likes.

Now, hexblade has the problem that the combo is 1/day. The alternative is Champion.

So yes, this build would probably burn a feat for 19-20 crit range, especially if it could get a casting level with that ASI instead of having to take Champion 3. Ie, Gloom 4,5 is an ASI, an extra attack, and a caster level. That could be better than Champion 3,4,5 is for this build.

Normally this build needs 1 feat (elven accuracy). With 19-20 crit range as a feat it needs 2.

Fighter 2/Gloom 3/Paladin 2 is the base. Now we need 2 feats and extra attack, and as many spell casting levels as we can get, or Fighter 3, one feat.

Champion 3/Gloom 5/Paladin 2 with Elven Accuracy is online; it has caster level 3. It then goes sorcerer X to fuel the smites.

Fighter 2/Gloom 4/Paladin 5 is 1 level later, and has caster level 4. It can go Paladin 6 for caster level 5 and saving throw aura, then sorcerer X.

Champion 3/Gloom 5/Paladin 2/Sorcerer X=10 is caster level 13.
Fighter 2/Gloom 4/Paladin 6/Sorcerer X=8 is caster level 13, and has cha to all saves. So this traded is 1 feat for "+cha to all saves for myself and all allies within 10'", which is a pretty solid trade.

Crap, I forgot easy advantage.

Samurai 3/Gloom 4/Paladin 6/Sorcerer X=7 is caster level 13, and has cha to all saves. So this traded is 1 feat for "+cha to all saves for myself and all allies within 10'", which is a pretty solid trade.

It comes online at Samurai 3/Gloom 4/Paladin 5 (level 12). It probably starts as a single-classed Paladin, and needs 13 str/wis/dex/cha to multiclass (ouch).

TL;DR: I can see builds that would take 19-20 crit range as a full feat.

A few highly specialized builds don’t make a feat worthwhile in general, though. Nor a level 3 (the most important) subclass level.

And the subclass needs to function in games where no one ever takes feats or multiclasses.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

You are positing a hypothetical inexperienced player who cannot remember to roll an extra damage die whenever they hit, which happens on ~60-70% of attacks, but could remember to roll an extra damage die whenever they hit on a 19, which happens on 5% of attacks.

The player has to choose to use a class ability, whereas the DM can inform the player when they score a critical hit.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Would you spend a feat for +1 crit range and nothing else?

Hell yes!

 

[TheCosmicKid]

The player has to choose to use a class ability, whereas the DM can inform the player when they score a critical hit.

So you are positing a hypothetical DM who will remind this player that a 19 is a critical hit, but will not remind them that that they can spend superiority dice when they hit.

 

[Todd Roybark]

And the subclass needs to function in games where no one ever takes feats or multiclasses.

doc..are you stating the subclass does not work, without the benefit of feats or M/C-ing?

Also, given that nearly 50% of characters use feats on DDB, and that percentage grew from the 2018 figure, can we put a moratorium on this argument, being peddled, ad nauseum?

 

[NotAYakk]

So you are positing a hypothetical DM who will remind this player that a 19 is a critical hit, but will not remind them that that they can spend superiority dice when they hit.

One is a choice the player makes, the other is something that happens regardless of choice.

So yes. Reminding "you need to roll more dice" is different than "you have a choice at this point to roll more dice or not".