D&D 5E An Argument for Why Paladins are the Strongest Class in 5E D&D

[Garthanos]

There are plenty of non-combat feats. It's the "felt obligated" culture that stops it more than lack of feats. Players want it for free.

The first bonus ASI isn't until 6th level so the class feature offering non-combat as a choice is a second tier option. Some subclasses offer benefits and I think fighters get by well enough the way 5e handles skills but the core fighter fights.

Yeh they are heroic before they can be great at athletics ... hmmmmmm

 

[Garthanos]

The Paladin has that aura though which is really good and lets them have a spotlight every time there are saves to be made.

The criticism I have heard of the aura is that it involves allies staying so close it turns them into fireball fodder or the like

 

[Ashrym]

The Bard gets more skills and expertise, that's a step up on any other skill build except rogue, who are obviously tops. I don't know why we're arguing about this, Lore Bard is obviously the second best skill monkey.

That's not what I was disagreeing with. It's the premise that a bard replaces a rogue because of skills when a rogue centers more around combat than the skill benefits in play. Sneak attack, cunning action, evasion, uncanny dodge, and elusive vs expertise, some bonus skills, and reliable talent. "Skill monkey" isn't what defines either class and isn't a required party role at all. Skill bonuses are just bonuses in a bigger picture. The shared bonus skills and expertise is just a small piece of that picture.

Then it was a slight side track on bards being less than rogues when it does come to skills. Bards still aren't the best at anything. They're just good at a lot of things.

It was less of an argument and more of a clarification. To keep it clarified, yes a lore bard does have a lot of skill benefits if that's something the group is looking for.

I would also point to artificers in that regard because they also gain expertise with thieves' tools where a bard does not, and being INT based already helps with investigation; flash of genius comes early enough to replace expertise if needed. The other strong alternatives are the knowledge cleric because of knowledge of the ages ability, and rangers who also get a bonus skill plus expertise on WIS/INT checks in their favored terrains. Both also use WIS for skill synergy with class ability scores.

It's a bit of a tangent though. I'm discussing, not arguing. I just think you placed too much focus on the bonus skills and expertise in your assessment.

 

[Garthanos]

Probably some of all of those, plus 5E being more than a little tilted toward combat, making combat-effectiveness a prime consideration.

I would call that D&D being more than a little tilted. Sure there are solutions and ways to apply skills to solve a lot of issues but for me its a bout fantasy heroic action adventure fiction genre and combat is pretty much gonna happen.

 

[FrozenNorth]

This.

Fighters can only make a claim at matching the best classes at combat in a game style that seems relatively rare. ( 6+ encounters/long rest.)
However they are pretty much the undisputed worst class for out of combat matters.

I think Barbarians beg to differ on this point.

 

[Fenris-77]

The focus on skills was om purpose. It was in the context of a party with Paladins and Wizards, neither of whom are great for skills. I also included a Rogue in my original ideal optimized party party. Either way, we aren't disagreeing.

 

[fearsomepirate]

MC paladin or warlock with sorcerers are popular too, for the same reasons. It's the features from those classes that a person is looking for and not the bard specifically.

Not true. Two-weapon fighting style isn't available to Paladins, and his Bardic Inspiration gives him an AC bonus along with bonus damage. Dude frequently was sitting there with 25 AC after a flurry of attacks.

Those smites look good but they aren't sustainable

Smites are even less sustainable for a full paladin. Fact is the MC'd bard smites harder and more often. And since he rolls more attacks, he gets more critical hits. From watching them in play:

P2/B6: Smites more, smites harder, crits more often, better AC, has some good 3rd and 4th level spells if needed
P8: More hp, save bonus aura, much better LoH, can prepare paladin spells above 1st level (no cleric so this is important)

and a person could just have used a couple of fireballs or whatnot instead.

3 attacks + BI + smite 3 > fireball on a single target, especially if that target is a demon. They've been fighting a lot of demons. Besides, there's an evoker wizard in the party, and only Lore bards can have fireball before 10th level.

 

[Ashrym]

Yeh they are heroic before they can be great at athletics ... hmmmmmm

Being great at athletics is just taking athletics proficiency and going STR based.

What happens with ASI's is ability scores tend to take priority and combat feats over non-combat feats. In theory fighters can take non-combat feats in their bonus ASI's or just take them in regular ASI's like anyone else. In practice they take STR or DEX first, maybe a good damage feat, and then follow up with CON or additional feats later. Some players spend the ASI's outside of combat but often players wait until 12th, 14th, or 16th level before that's a consideration.

Players can do more with fighters using feats but they don't because they play the fighters to fight in the first place so that's where the feats goes.

Fighters could take the actor feat and pick up associated skills via background if they want. It's the desire to be better at fighting that gets in the way.

The criticism I have heard of the aura is that it involves allies staying so close it turns them into fireball fodder or the like

A huddle invites AoE's from opponents capable of those tactics. Spreading out loses the aura. The party usually knows when it's a good idea to do either based on the opponents they are fighting. The secret here is make smart choices. Looking at the size of dungeon rooms kind of makes it a moot point at times as well -- players are grouped in range by necessity.

On that note, however, the aura helps with the save for the AoE and not grouping up doesn't necessarily stop players from getting hit by one anyway. Splitting party up might make less of them get hit by the AoE but it also makes the ones who do get hit (other than the paladin) more susceptible to the same AoE if it comes.

 

[Garthanos]

Being great at athletics is just taking athletics proficiency and going STR based.

until somebody takes expertise in it... and you start actually trying to do stunts. Of course with that being so vague I can see why people don't

 

[Garthanos]

Players can do more with fighters using feats but they don't because they play the fighters to fight in the first place so that's where the feats goes.

I think that is a nail on the head and even my adjustments to the fighter were largely about making it even more versatile in combat or allowing the str fighter to not lag on initiative so much and similar combat things so I am not thinking I have room to talk