D&D 5E Have we rebalanced the Champion Yet?

[jgsugden]

As with many things, look to Matt Mercer for how to address this issue.

In Campaign 1, Matt introduced an item that interacted with the subclass feature for one of his PCs, although I think Mr. Mercer ended up buffing one of the stronger PCs in the group accidentally due to all of the things that PC had going for it (although being played by Sam Riegel was a heck of an offset as well).

Making it an attuned item in addition to buffing the class features blurs the lines around what the exact balance needs to be as you're using more resources (your subclass selection, an attunement slot) to get the full benefit of the item.

So, I give you, the Champion's Edge (attuned weapon), a Vestige of Divergence:

Dormant State:

This Greataxe is +1 to hit and +d4 to damage. As a bonus action, you can will the axe to change into a hand axe or battle axe. It will remain in this form until you use a bonus action to revert it to a great axe, or you lose attunement.

If the axe is out of your hands, but attuned to you, you may use a bonus action to teleport it to your hand.

If you have the Improved Critical feature, the weapon adds 1d12 on a critical hit.

If you have the Remarkable Athlete class feature, you gain +2 strength (and increase your maximum strength score by 2) while this item is attuned.

Awakened State:

You gain a +2 to Constitution (and increase your maximum constitution by 2) while this item is attuned.

You may cast the Enlarge/Reduce spell on yourself once per short rest as a bonus action.

Exalted State:

You gain +2 strength (and increase your maximum strength score by 2) while this item is attuned.

This weapon deals an additional d8 radiant damage on each attack.

You may cast the Enlarge/Reduce spell on yourself as a bonus action anytime you wish.

 

[FrogReaver]

Because that gets stronger with higher levels with more attacks, and the champion is relatively weaker at lower levels with fewer attacks.

We want the champion to not feel weak at 3-4 amd 5-10 compared to the BM. But at 17+ the xhampions's gap with the BM is smaller, while +2 per hit is larger at 17+.

Asding +2 per hit is like fixing 3-4 by giving the champion an extra attack at 18.

I think we should care more about 3-10 than 13-18, but we should also have a solution that doesn't ignore 13-20 balance.

I don't think there's a way to keep the champion simple and have it perfectly balance in all tiers against the battlemaster. IMO +2 dmg gets pretty durn close.

 

[FrogReaver]

I have been proposing options that allow a fighter to make risky maneuvering which triggers opportunity attacks but allows the character themselves to take an extra attack and a similar method for trading out hit points in an exertion to allow an extra attack. These both favor the crit fisher but by adding choices make the class harder to play I suppose. And would still be in play at high levels so... I guess not.

Do those keep the vision of the champion as a simple fighter?

 

[Garthanos]

Do those keep the vision of the champion as a simple fighter?

they are an extra active choice indeed but something you can just not do and have everything still pretty much work as standardly. Just as you can not choose as the simple fighter ever to trip or grab.

(they also come with their own built in disadvantage of making yourself more vulnerable for stepping it up)

They do however play to the gambler inclination I see some playing a crit fisher liking.

And they also play to someone who wants how they are fighting to express emotion ie willingness to risk. If fighting is also story I think that is as important as choosing where you move and similar things.

 

[FrogReaver]

they are an extra active choice indeed but something you can just not do and have everything still pretty much work as standardly. Just as you can not choose as the simple fighter ever to trip or grab.

(they also come with their own built in disadvantage of making yourself more vulnerable for stepping it up)

They do however play to the gambler inclination I see some playing a crit fisher liking.

And they also play to someone who wants how they are fighting to express emotion ie willingness to risk. If fighting is also story I think that is as important as choosing where you move and similar things.

All fine - but it sounds like you are trying to morph the champion more into something more complex and fiddly that you would enjoy more as none of those things are going to be appealing to the simple champion fan.

 

[FrogReaver]

Because that gets stronger with higher levels with more attacks, and the champion is relatively weaker at lower levels with fewer attacks.

We want the champion to not feel weak at 3-4 amd 5-10 compared to the BM. But at 17+ the xhampions's gap with the BM is smaller, while +2 per hit is larger at 17+.

Asding +2 per hit is like fixing 3-4 by giving the champion an extra attack at 18.

I think we should care more about 3-10 than 13-18, but we should also have a solution that doesn't ignore 13-20 balance.

It really isn't. +2 damage from 1-4 adds approximately 27.6 damage (60% hit rate). The Crit affect adds another 3.5-6.5 on average. Using a longsword that's +32.1

A battlemaster get's +54.

You've cut the gap more than in half. By level 5 you've caught up - even surpassed the battlemaster.

 

[FrogReaver]

In that case just give a damage bonus on the first hit per round.

That would work well. It would need to scale some. I'm imagining scale it kind of like the zealot barbarians damage scales.

 

[NotAYakk]

It really isn't. +2 damage from 1-4 adds approximately 27.6 damage (60% hit rate). The Crit affect adds another 3.5-6.5 on average. Using a longsword that's +32.1

A battlemaster get's +54.

You've cut the gap more than in half. By level 5 you've caught up - even surpassed the battlemaster.

And at 11 you have way surppased the battlemaster, at 17 worse, and at 20 even further.

The problem is at 3-10, and the largest impact of your change is at 11-20.

 

[FrogReaver]

The problem is at 3-10, and the largest impact of your change is at 11-20.

At 3-4 you are 1 DPR behind.
At 5-10 you are virtually identical in DPR.

What's wrong with that?

 

[NotAYakk]

At 3-4 you are 1 DPR behind.
At 5-10 you are virtually identical in DPR.

What's wrong with that?

What is wrong with that is you are ignoring half of the sentence you quoted.

The problem is at 3-10, and the largest impact of your change is at 11-20.

Notice you failed to mention 11-20. Almost as if the words I said had meaning.

When I type things, I do it for a reason. When you quote something and ignore half of it, and are confused, consider the possibility that the part you ignored might be why you are confused.

The other problem is I worded it poorly. So I'll try again.

The problem (champion sucks compared to BM) they are trying to correct is at level 3-10. The solution proposed (+2 damage per attack) has by the largest impact at 11-20, because it scales with taps (and accuracy), and taps (and accuracy) go up at 11 and 17 and 20. This is what I would describe as a poorly aimed solution, because it has a larger impact where there is a smaller problem, and a smaller impact where there is a larger problem.

You want a solution that is (a) simple (as this is the champion), and (b) has a larger impact, at least relative, at lower levels, and not at higher levels.