D&D 5E Have we rebalanced the Champion Yet?

[Garthanos]

Just noticed reckless attack on the Barbarian is barely reckless compared to offering the enemy an opportunity attack.

Bold Attack (Barbarians renamed) and Reckless Attack (grant opportunity attack to gain one)

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

It really isn't. +2 damage from 1-4 adds approximately 27.6 damage (60% hit rate). The Crit affect adds another 3.5-6.5 on average. Using a longsword that's +32.1

A battlemaster get's +54.

You've cut the gap more than in half. By level 5 you've caught up - even surpassed the battlemaster.

Bear in mind that the Battlemaster damage maths from the first page is rather bad and somewhat misleading.
It ignores the riders on the maneuvers, to just look at pure damage, but ignores the maneuvers that just give damage: Riposte and precision attack.

A better model would be to assume that each Superiority dice grants an additional attack, rather than just being a rider on an existing attack. This represents use of Riposte to get an additional attack, and Precision to turn a miss into another chance to hit.

This also shows the Battlemaster scaling better since attacks will increase in damage at higher levels.

 

[FrogReaver]

Bear in mind that the Battlemaster damage maths from the first page is rather bad and somewhat misleading.
It ignores the riders on the maneuvers, to just look at pure damage, but ignores the maneuvers that just give damage: Riposte and precision attack.

A better model would be to assume that each Superiority dice grants an additional attack, rather than just being a rider on an existing attack. This represents use of Riposte to get an additional attack, and Precision to turn a miss into another chance to hit.

This also shows the Battlemaster scaling better since attacks will increase in damage at higher levels.

I'm all about precision. In fact I think I've pushed that maneuver more than anyone on this site over the years. That said I don't believe those are really the comparisons we should be aiming for.

Now on the point that manuevers are more useful overall because they have effects and can be front loaded - I agree. But I don't think the answer is to compensate the champion with even more damage to try to close that gap. Give him another bonus at level 3. I'm thinking expertise athletics would be pretty cool.

 

[Garthanos]

Now on the point that manuevers are more useful overall because they have effects and can be front loaded - I agree. But I don't think the answer is to compensate the champion with even more damage to try to close that gap. Give him another bonus at level 3. I'm thinking expertise athletics would be pretty cool.

I have to admit I find that appealing

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I'm all about precision. In fact I think I've pushed that maneuver more than anyone on this site over the years. That said I don't believe those are really the comparisons we should be aiming for.

Now on the point that manuevers are more useful overall because they have effects and can be front loaded - I agree. But I don't think the answer is to compensate the champion with even more damage to try to close that gap. Give him another bonus at level 3. I'm thinking expertise athletics would be pretty cool.

If we're only comparing damage, between the two subclasses, then we should be comparing the damage-focused maneuvers. There is no real way of quantifying the benefits of the maneuvers with additional effects, but to base the comparison on the maneuvers with those effects is seriously undervaluing the BM subclass. - If you balance things so that both subclasses can deal comparable damage, but the BM also has the other effects from its maneuvers, you will end with a skewed and unbalanced result.

I agree that the Champion should get something more than just more damage. Athletics expertise is nice, but using it in combat will generally still compete with dealing damage in a way that the BM maneuvers don't, and out of combat use is still limited.
As a general Fighter improvement, I have suggested giving an additional Background, to represent the fighter staying more grounded in the life and people around them. If you're leaving the fighter class in general alone, you could grant the Champion an extra Background instead.

 

[Garthanos]

But at that point you've stopped trying to rebalance a simple fighter (aka Champion).

ok it took brain a bit it engage with this question....
My battlemaster gains a portion of its extra damage by spending a resource aka CS... my Paladin gets a portion of its damage by spending daily resources. The champion does so with criticals on each attack. Champions damage is linear to its attacks and BM and Paladins are not.... an amount is added to it on a short rest or daily basis. So something which improves access to more attacks helps out the Champion more than it helps the battlemaster and paladin. It does also give the Barbarian a boost but my original idea was fighter only and helped the Champion more than other archetypes of fighter.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I agree that the Champion should get something more than just more damage. Athletics expertise is nice, but using it in combat will generally still compete with dealing damage in a way that the BM maneuvers don't, and out of combat use is still limited.

A Champion with Expertise in Athletics would be trading being able to damage people as part of a knock-prone attempt for a much higher chance of knocking an enemy prone...and one that never runs out of gas. Or, if he goes with the Duelist fighting style, pick up the Grappler feat at 6th level and have +8 to Grapple checks right away.

 

[Hayato]

To be honest? I prefer champion's kit turning into a fighter core chassis. Well, everything in champion sound like what fighter should has to be, especially the feature Additional Fighting Style. Will this make fighter op? Sincerity, I don't think so.

Fighter class rebuild:

1st	Fighting Style	Second Wind
2nd	Action Surge
3rd	Martial Archetype Feature	Bonus Proficiency
4th	Ability Score Improv.
5th	Extra Attack	Improved Critical	Remarkable Athlete
6th	Ability Score Improv.
7th	Martial Archetype Feature
8th	Ability Score Improv.
9th	Indomitable
10th	Martial Archetype feature
11th	Extra Attack (2)	Additional Fighting Style	Superior Critical
12th	Ability Score Improv.
13th	Indomitable (two uses)
14th	Ability Score Improv.
15th	Martial Archetype feature
16th	Ability Score Improv.
17th	Action Surge (two uses)
18th	Martial Archetype feature
19th	Ability Score Improv.
20th	Extra Attack (3)	Survivor

Another thing is the sub-class Samurai be Champion 2.0. I love samurais, but after some thoughts, I realize Samurai subclass was a waste space of design. Let all of us be honest, Elegant Courtier (level 7 feature) is better than Indomitable (level 9 feature).

Fighters don't need more sub-classes than Battle Master and Eldritch Knight. They cover all that we need. Cavalier, Samurai, Purple Knight and Arcane Archer's feature should came as a feat. It'll open much more space to custom our fighters. Want to make a supreme defender? Just take Sentinel + Vigilant Defender.

That's it.

 

[FrogReaver]

ok it took brain a bit it engage with this question....
My battlemaster gains a portion of its extra damage by spending a resource aka CS... my Paladin gets a portion of its damage by spending daily resources. The champion does so with criticals on each attack. Champions damage is linear to its attacks and BM and Paladins are not.... an amount is added to it on a short rest or daily basis. So something which improves access to more attacks helps out the Champion more than it helps the battlemaster and paladin. It does also give the Barbarian a boost but my original idea was fighter only and helped the Champion more than other archetypes of fighter.

In all honesty a way to get an extra attack probably helps the battlemaster more - as he can tie it into a trip attack round to also grant that attack advantage.

 

[THEMNGMNT]

I know this is sacrilege to some, but I'd just grant the Champion damage on a miss equal to their proficiency bonus. That's distinctive and simple, which I would argue are the criteria for any Champion ability. Of course, I've not seen a Champion in play yet, so I don't know if they actually need to be fixed.