D&D 4E Are powers samey?

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More importantly, though, for us at least, is that a warrior thinking about the placement of enemies seems a natural thing to do, and draws the player into the fiction.

And this to me is key. I want decisions of the sort my character would make to be meaningful. The placement of enemies and how to adapt to that is the sort of decision I would expect to be meaningful - and for different fighters to react with in different ways
 

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Marandahir

Crown-Forester (he/him)
I think a big part of the struggle that's expressed in these various comments are that we have 2 different game styles envisioned for the combat pillar played in D&D:

1. Complex tactical roleplaying where movement and position and resource management are a big part of the draw of the game; and

2. Bust in the doors hack and slash fighting game where theatre of the mind takes precedence, and abilities tend toward always on or at-will, or once triggered last the rest of the fight scene.

The former has been the game played by the Wizard character since the dawn of D&D. But it's a game that many people like to play, not just those drawn to characters with magical abilities. 4e allowed Fighters to have that complexity.

The later has been played by Fighters and Barbarians since the dawn of D&D. And that's still a great choice! 5e allows more theatre of the mind even for Wizard players. Many people love the simpler gameplay to allow them to focus on the narrative, or to allow them to do their part and contribute while their friends focus on the complex chessgame. This is NOT a bad thing.

The issue comes with balancing both games with each other, which has OFTEN been very challenging, if not seemingly insurmountable. I think 5e does a great job of doing that, and 4e Essentials did a pretty darn good job of it too, me thought.

Mearls has said in many a happy-fun hour that he wishes they hadn't made the PHB Fighter subclasses the option for fan of 1, the option for fan of 2, and the flavourful option for the gish player. He wishes all Fighter subclasses had a flavourful identity like the Eldritch Knight does – just not necessarily as partial-casters. In that ideal world, perhaps there would dials and bells to adjust the whole game between complexity levels, for each and every class and subclass.
 

pemerton

Legend
In 5e when I'm facing orcs with a warrior I'm running around chopping them down and turning my brain off. When I'm facing a dragon I'm running around chopping at the dragon. One foe or many it doesn't matter If I'm fighting on a narrow walkway or if I'm fighting on a flat plane or near a cliff edge I run around and chop at the dragon. To me this is quite literally the dictionary definition of "samey". No matter what the "official" situation is I do exactly the same things.

<snip>

Without your explanation I would never have understood that you (and I think other people) by "samey" mean "things are actually different and I have to think about them because I can't just do the same thing". Which is the literal opposite of what I mean by samey.

Or more accurately I think you mean "This detail actively gets in the way of my roleplaying"
In my reply to @Sadras a llittle but not a long way upthread, I distinguished imagnined input fiction from shared fiction of situation and output/consequence.

The "roleplaying" that is hindered by thinking about positioning and choice of manouevre seems to be closer to the "input" side - eg I want to imagine my warrior like Gimli rushing up to orcs and cuttting them down. And, insofar as facing orcs and facing a dragon don't change much about how the player engages via the PC, that to me suggests that shared fiction of situation is not looming so large.

One thing that I really enjoy about 4e is the way it makes the external character of the fictional situation come to life. (I say external because "internal" aspects, like emotions and relationships, loom less large in 4e than in some other RPGs.)
 

pemerton

Legend
I think a big part of the struggle that's expressed in these various comments are that we have 2 different game styles envisioned for the combat pillar played in D&D:

1. Complex tactical roleplaying where movement and position and resource management are a big part of the draw of the game; and

2. Bust in the doors hack and slash fighting game where theatre of the mind takes precedence, and abilities tend toward always on or at-will, or once triggered last the rest of the fight scene.

<snip>

Many people love the simpler gameplay to allow them to focus on the narrative
I've bolded the part of your post that I find a bit contentious, though I don't think you meant it to be that!

Narrative in RPGing is closely related to fiction. And just as there are different aspects to the fiction (as I've tried to bring out in some posts that were ultimately responses to something @Sadras said), so I think there are analogously different ways of thinking about narrative in a RPG.

How do we know that my warrior (to pick an example) is a whirlwind of death who sweeps across the battlefield, or a stalwart knightly type who can take down all comers? In AD&D that's all just in imagination with no connection to the mechanics - because 1 minute rounds and fairly simple but strict "engagement" rules mean that, in mechanical terms, it never comes out. Even in the stats of the game, there's no difference betrween AC 4 due to leather and 18 DEX or AC 4 due to mail and shield.

Whereas 4e definitely answers this question through the fiction that results from application of the action declaration and resolution mechanics. We can tell if a warrior is moving or standing still; if a warrior is narrowly evading attack (AC bonus vs OAs) or deftly outwitting nearby enemies (shift that doesn't allow for OAs); if a warrior is a whirlwind of death (ranger twin-strike-y stuff) or a stalwart defender (fighter lockdown-y stuff).

This is why I don't see 4e's mechanical complexity as an alternative to narrative. I see it as a tool for engaging the shared fiction of the situation and then producing a narrative via mechanical resolution processes. I would compare it, in that respect, to some elements of Rolemaster and many elements of Burning Wheel, and would contrast it with (say) classic D&D like Moldvay Basic and Gygax's AD&D, and with Tunnels & Trolls.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
One thing that I really enjoy about 4e is the way it makes the external character of the fictional situation come to life. (I say external because "internal" aspects, like emotions and relationships, loom less large in 4e than in some other RPGs.)
Some of the choices involve risk management or variations of reliable (like reaping strike) even directly among the at-will things to me can relate to emotions / character expression through combat decisions and styles.
 

pemerton

Legend
Some of the choices involve risk management or variations of reliable (like reaping strike) even directly among the at-will things to me can relate to emotions / character expression through combat decisions and styles.
Sure. But I wouldn't say that it's up there with RPGs that actually factor emotion and relationships into either resolutoin (eg Prince Valiant, Cortex+ heroic) or the resource cycel (eg Burning Wheel).
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
How do we know that my warrior (to pick an example) is a whirlwind of death who sweeps across the battlefield, or a stalwart knightly type who can take down all comers? In AD&D that's all just in imagination with no connection to the mechanics - because 1 minute rounds and fairly simple but strict "engagement" rules mean that, in mechanical terms, it never comes out. Even in the stats of the game, there's no difference betrween AC 4 due to leather and 18 DEX or AC 4 due to mail and shield.

That to me is more of a pro

Whereas 4e definitely answers this question through the fiction that results from application of the action declaration and resolution mechanics. We can tell if a warrior is moving or standing still; if a warrior is narrowly evading attack (AC bonus vs OAs) or deftly outwitting nearby enemies (shift that doesn't allow for OAs); if a warrior is a whirlwind of death (ranger twin-strike-y stuff) or a stalwart defender (fighter lockdown-y stuff).

It didn't answer those questions for me. It didn't work that way for me.

This is why I don't see 4e's mechanical complexity as an alternative to narrative. I see it as a tool for engaging the shared fiction of the situation and then producing a narrative via mechanical resolution processes. I would compare it, in that respect, to some elements of Rolemaster and many elements of Burning Wheel, and would contrast it with (say) classic D&D like Moldvay Basic and Gygax's AD&D, and with Tunnels & Trolls.

To me it's a distraction from the fiction. It's a cool little minigame I get to play and nothing more.
 

Imaro

Legend
I've bolded the part of your post that I find a bit contentious, though I don't think you meant it to be that!

Narrative in RPGing is closely related to fiction. And just as there are different aspects to the fiction (as I've tried to bring out in some posts that were ultimately responses to something @Sadras said), so I think there are analogously different ways of thinking about narrative in a RPG.

How do we know that my warrior (to pick an example) is a whirlwind of death who sweeps across the battlefield, or a stalwart knightly type who can take down all comers? In AD&D that's all just in imagination with no connection to the mechanics - because 1 minute rounds and fairly simple but strict "engagement" rules mean that, in mechanical terms, it never comes out. Even in the stats of the game, there's no difference betrween AC 4 due to leather and 18 DEX or AC 4 due to mail and shield.

Whereas 4e definitely answers this question through the fiction that results from application of the action declaration and resolution mechanics. We can tell if a warrior is moving or standing still; if a warrior is narrowly evading attack (AC bonus vs OAs) or deftly outwitting nearby enemies (shift that doesn't allow for OAs); if a warrior is a whirlwind of death (ranger twin-strike-y stuff) or a stalwart defender (fighter lockdown-y stuff).

This is why I don't see 4e's mechanical complexity as an alternative to narrative. I see it as a tool for engaging the shared fiction of the situation and then producing a narrative via mechanical resolution processes. I would compare it, in that respect, to some elements of Rolemaster and many elements of Burning Wheel, and would contrast it with (say) classic D&D like Moldvay Basic and Gygax's AD&D, and with Tunnels & Trolls.

I always find a disconnect with the sentiment expressed above... and the equally prevalent sentiment amongst fans of 4e and I believe the rulebooks themselves... that the overlay of fiction on 4e's mechanics can be easily changed as desired. They feel at odds to me.

In other words if the fiction in 4e is, as you claim, generated through the action declaration and resolution mechanics and it informs us as specifically as you imply above with your examples... how can said mechanics also be loose enough that one can overlay their own fiction on the mechanics?

Honestly I always felt 4e's mechanics in combat, caused my brain to engage almost solely on a mechanical level... with fiction becoming an afterthought at best to what was the most sound power to use, movement route to take, easiest way to focus fire and so on.
 

Sure. But I wouldn't say that it's up there with RPGs that actually factor emotion and relationships into either resolutoin (eg Prince Valiant, Cortex+ heroic) or the resource cycel (eg Burning Wheel).

I wouldn't even say it's up there with characters that have emotion and relationships as a part of the background or character creation. But then no D&D is.
 

Marandahir

Crown-Forester (he/him)
I've bolded the part of your post that I find a bit contentious, though I don't think you meant it to be that!

Narrative in RPGing is closely related to fiction. And just as there are different aspects to the fiction (as I've tried to bring out in some posts that were ultimately responses to something @Sadras said), so I think there are analogously different ways of thinking about narrative in a RPG.

How do we know that my warrior (to pick an example) is a whirlwind of death who sweeps across the battlefield, or a stalwart knightly type who can take down all comers? In AD&D that's all just in imagination with no connection to the mechanics - because 1 minute rounds and fairly simple but strict "engagement" rules mean that, in mechanical terms, it never comes out. Even in the stats of the game, there's no difference betrween AC 4 due to leather and 18 DEX or AC 4 due to mail and shield.

Whereas 4e definitely answers this question through the fiction that results from application of the action declaration and resolution mechanics. We can tell if a warrior is moving or standing still; if a warrior is narrowly evading attack (AC bonus vs OAs) or deftly outwitting nearby enemies (shift that doesn't allow for OAs); if a warrior is a whirlwind of death (ranger twin-strike-y stuff) or a stalwart defender (fighter lockdown-y stuff).

This is why I don't see 4e's mechanical complexity as an alternative to narrative. I see it as a tool for engaging the shared fiction of the situation and then producing a narrative via mechanical resolution processes. I would compare it, in that respect, to some elements of Rolemaster and many elements of Burning Wheel, and would contrast it with (say) classic D&D like Moldvay Basic and Gygax's AD&D, and with Tunnels & Trolls.

Absolutely agreed.

I find that the mechanics of the 4e AEDU Power matrix can express the fiction of those archetypes in ways I rarely experienced even in rules-heavy feat builds of Fighters in 3.5e, for example.

This is something I LOVE about 4e. I want to make it clear that as a D&D player, I've played 2e, 3e, 3.5e, 4e, and 5e, and 4e probably was the center of the most games I ran or played in, and I found it very suiting to my liking, and would happily play in that sandbox again if friends wanted to.

As someone who played 4e heavily, from 2008 all the way to 2014, I do have to say that I found certain mechanics of the game got to a point where they began to constrict the fiction rather than express it. If I wanted my character to do a theatrical action that I didn't have a power that could adequately express that action, I couldn't do it (or at least was highly encouraged not to do it, since I had consistently effective features I could do instead). The party didn't want me to do actions outside of my power choices because those would be subject to DM fiat rather than following the rules of my abilities, which were knowable and consistent enough. The chessgame actively discouraged inventive roleplaying within combat for that reason.

Utility powers were awesome! But so few were hard to judge. What is an encounter utility power if I'm using it outside of combat? The game seemed to be centered around the combat round, because they put so much effort into making it work so effectively, so very few of my class abilities were useful to draw upon in roleplaying moments like convincing the King or stopping a brawl. Honestly, I LOVED the new general abilities given to all Bards (not just Essentials Skalds) in Heroes of the Feywild precisely because they operated outside of the normal combat encounters.

Some of the best days in our 4e games, in my opinion, were ones we didn't roll initiative once. But I have party members who were NOT happy we never got to combat those sessions, because they were tricked out for combat and felt they didn't have the same functional, reliable tools they could draw upon in combat to tell their stories when we got to the outside of combat portions.

That's one reason I adore 5e so much. It carries over a lot of those ability flares, but there's never a passive pressure in the game suggesting, "if it's not in your power set, you can't do it." I feel emboldened by the game. So I understand when people say 4e felt videogamey – the powers passively suggest that there are limits to what you can attempt to do, even if that's not actually the case.

In Ocarina of Time, you can't jump unless you come to the edge of a cliff, but in Breath of the Wild, there is a dedicated Jump button, and boy, the things you can do once you can jump on command! But someone had to program that in there, and you still can't do EVERYTHING you might think of (I can't make Link wear a Goron Hardhat, for example). In D&D, you should be able to do just about anything you can imagine. But there are rules so that you don't get into a fight over whether you killed the goblin or not. The rules exist to empower the narrative and adjudicate and resolve issues where there's some uncertainty of success.

4e empowered the narrative, and empowered Players to be able to do really cool things without the DM saying, "nah, you failed at that." In earlier editions, a good DM may roll with the Players' ideas, or at least say "Yes, and." But a bad DM was nightmares to play with, because unless you're a spellcaster, you had no reliable way to do cool narrative things since the DM could just say you failed at that stunt. 4e evened the playing field with the powers, but in the process, many players felt that they could ONLY do the things they had powers for.

That, in my mind, is the root of 4e powers feeling "samey" – they may all do different things, but they feel like a gilded cage that is very hard to break out of. And the more powers that were added, the harder it was to narrative around, since the well-read DM might say that you can't do that because there's this other power that does that and you don't have that power. As the options increased (and options paralysis set in, mind you), the cage felt like it was closing in around us, rather than liberating us. And the Devs felt similarly – they felt they had to create powers for every different type of action you might take, and eventually it got to the point where there were narrative questions on why we couldn't just do everything on that list or why we could only do them a certain number of times. The pseudo-vancian nature of powers didn't really compute with the narrative they were trying to tell.

5e starts with a very different assumption, and I think it's a bit better for it. I do think martial characters struggle with toys, and I would personally suggest that all those martial characters should get martial adept powers and superiority dice. I don't want martial adept powers to become as widespread as everything under the sun. But I do want to see them empower that sort of tactical play that 4e had and give that level of narrative power back to martial character that want it. I'm of a mind to offer the feat free to any martial character (and offer something similar to casters to balance). But that's just my thoughts, and I'm starting to ramble a bit, so I'll end it there.
 

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