D&D 4E Are powers samey?

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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
That to me is more of a pro
Let's turn that on casters no game effects defined except you make the battle x points in your favor by harming the enemy or by healing your ally mechanical description done you want to make the ground slippery under the enemy that is now simulated by hit point loss you didnt do it directly its assumed some fell and hurt themselves or some slipped later when a sword was aimed at them but you are utterly free to imagine it however you want. You want to try and sleep the enemy yup does hit point damage if you take them out they are asleep if you dont they might be groggier when a later attack hits em. So hay your sleep spell never totally fails. All buffs of allies and All debuffs of enemies are just hit point changes does that really sounding funner?

And being able to do harm and heal both is better than those fighters they only get one mechanic harming. Strip away healing you have just the magic user to get closer to the fighter but strip away affecting multiple opponents strip away having any sort of nova ability you are stuck doing the same amount of effect all the time no critical hits even those were not real D&D. The fighters only real strategic choice... avoiding the fight entirely. His only strategic resources his hit points.

More is better claiming Less is ( and you can imagine it how you like) is Orwellian doublespeak to me.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
5e starts with a very different assumption, and I think it's a bit better for it. I do think martial characters struggle with toys, and I would personally suggest that all those martial characters should get martial adept powers and superiority dice.
And those abilities all no more potent than might be appropriate for a level 3 character.
Paladin getting called best fighting class in 5e take a guess what they have in common with 4e characters .... ability to chose to nova ie they are akin to a martial class with heavier daily resources they can bring to focus fast.
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I always find a disconnect with the sentiment expressed above... and the equally prevalent sentiment amongst fans of 4e and I believe the rulebooks themselves... that the overlay of fiction on 4e's mechanics can be easily changed as desired. They feel at odds to me.

In other words if the fiction in 4e is, as you claim, generated through the action declaration and resolution mechanics and it informs us as specifically as you imply above with your examples... how can said mechanics also be loose enough that one can overlay their own fiction on the mechanics?

I think you've put your finger on another piece of poor explanation twice over. The first and obvious part is that if you are using a battlemap the characters (PC and NPC alike) are neither more nor less fixed in where they are than in any other version - just as characters in films with continuity are fixed in their physical locations whether the background is real or a green screen. But on a green screen the characters aren't going to interact with elements of the set, and we know they aren't because they aren't really there.

But more important is that you can reskin entire characters and you can do this because outside the basic class features no power is mandatory. Which means you can pick and choose a lot more things that are near enough that they fit.

To take an extreme hypothetical example let's assume that I want to play a goblin on a pogo stick in a comedy game. I want to be nippy and nimble, and bounce around, and I don't want to be an extreme high hit point tank or a spellcaster. There are two obvious choices for nippy classes which aren't tanks or spellcasters; rogue and monk. I don't think that an absurd sneak attack every time fits - so rogue doesn't fit that well (I might dip a level or two if I were to try this in 3.5 or 5e but 3d6 sneak attacks are right out).

Playing my goblin on a pogo stick as a monk is just about OK for the first four levels; the ki pool is a bit odd for this chaotic a character - but then I hit fifth level with Stunning Fist and sixth which gives me unarmed magic weapons. I can just about justify the stunning attack as hopping on someone's head - but stunning fist is so good you normally spam it, which means that I either become a one note joke . Even the normal ki pool is a little odd. It just feels wrong.

Meanwhile in 4e the Monk has no mandatory abilities. We instead have a number of different powers to pick from different visions of the monk. Let's for the sake of argument call them "Focused warrior", "Four Elements", "Wire-Fu", and "Drunken Master" (the historical fighting style being based round pretending to be drunk although you can take the more cinematic approach). All the monk powers come from one or other of these approaches - and this is where 4e becomes a lot easier to create reskinned characters than any other edition; the 3.5 and 5e monks are based almost entirely round the focused warrior archetype. 5e can also have an additional layer (such as four elements or ninja) or double down on the focused warrior. But 4e we can take our powers from any of our archetypes, which means our goblin on a pogo stick gets to be an almost pure mix of wire-fu and drunken master with none of the focused warrior to be seen (it's a goblin on a pogo stick in a battle - do you really expect focus).

To illustrate I look at the class feature, and the first Four Elements choice, Desert Wind, doing fire damage is completely wrong - but Centered Breath that when you hit someone you can slide an enemy around you (whether or not it's the one you hit) is perfect for the chaotic goblin on a pogo stick. Likewise when it comes to picking my at wills, the four elements choice blistering flourish (doing fire damage and with a move action that burns enemies that hit you with opportunity attacks) would not fit. But one of my at wills being Dragon's Tail (with an attack that knocks enemies down and a move action that lets you swap spaces with an enemy or a prone ally) is perfect for the effects of a pogo stick jumping on the enemy. And Fallen Needle (discombobulating enemies with the attack for a -2 to hit you if you hit them, and a minor action move or shift) is superb to represent the pogo stick bounding off in random directions. So by the time we've picked our at wills we know our goblin is fast and slippery - and likes bouncing on peoples' heads to knock them down. This is what they do when they aren't sure what else to do.

And then we pick encounter and daily powers again to match our ridiculous pogo-sticking that leaves us bouncing around to ludicrous places and leaving enemies confused or flattened. Because all our powers are strictly powers we have picked to fit the character concept and there is nothing we had to take the whole thing fits much better. It's not that we could reskin more easily, but that we could easily duck anything that didn't fit the concept in a way you simply can't in other editions.

Honestly I always felt 4e's mechanics in combat, caused my brain to engage almost solely on a mechanical level... with fiction becoming an afterthought at best to what was the most sound power to use, movement route to take, easiest way to focus fire and so on.

And this is a criticism I can sympathise with. I never found it that bad in part because I've got a head for things like that - but I found the issue vanished when I started building concepts that fit the genre I was going for and then picking powers based on that concept. The powers were just how I represented what my character did and the picks flowed from the concept. Which meant that the choices flowed from what I visualised my character doing in related situations.

And what balance means to 4e players is that a concept as ridiculous as a Blood Bowl inspired goblin on a pogo stick will not only be buildable and effective because of 4e's unmatched flexibility in character design but I know I can do it without letting everyone else in the group down by playing a dud character who isn't able to hold their own (but is highly distinctive in what they do). So the only thing I need to worry about is whether it's a bad fit for the game and the table.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Let's turn that on casters no game effects defined except you make the battle x points in your favor by harming the enemy or by healing your ally mechanical description done you want to make the ground slippery under the enemy that is now simulated by hit point loss you didnt do it directly its assumed some fell and hurt themselves or some slipped later when a sword was aimed at them but you are utterly free to imagine it however you want. You want to try and sleep the enemy yup does hit point damage if you take them out they are asleep if you dont they might be groggier when a later attack hits em. So hay your sleep spell never totally fails. All buffs of allies and All debuffs of enemies are just hit point changes does that really sounding funner?

But.... Fighters don't just do damage. They grapple. They body block. They threaten enemies they are near with OA's. The push. The knockdown. They threaten enemies (potentially intimidating them).

Even more importantly - even if absolutely everything a fighter did was done in terms of hp damage that doesn't imply that playstyle should be the only playstyle in the game.

5e has done a good job with that - champions/battlemasters/eldritch knights

What's the difference between 4e and a battlemaster (the most 4e inspired subclass IMO). The biggest difference is that the battlemaster only have enough powers to use his special abilities a few times a fight.

And being able to do harm and heal both is better than those fighters they only get one mechanic harming. Strip away healing you have just the magic user to get closer to the fighter but strip away affecting multiple opponents strip away having any sort of nova ability you are stuck doing the same amount of effect all the time no critical hits even those were not real D&D. The fighters only real strategic choice... avoiding the fight entirely. His only strategic resources his hit points.

More is better claiming Less is ( and you can imagine it how you like) is Orwellian doublespeak to me.

It's like you must take absolutely everything to one extreme or another. There is a happy middle ground that has good reasons for existing. You can't prove the happy middle ground shouldn't exist by pushing for one extreme after another because none of those extremes is actually my position.
 

What's the difference between 4e and a battlemaster (the most 4e inspired subclass IMO). The biggest difference is that the battlemaster only have enough powers to use his special abilities a few times a fight.

1: The Battlemaster gets its best options at third level. The superiority dice - and any options to spend dice they get at 7th level they only get at 7th level because it wasn't good enough to pick at 3rd level
2: The resource pool leading to spammability.
3: The lack of anything remotely as evocative as any good encounter let alone daily powers

The battlemaster is to 4e as instant coffee is to actually good coffee.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
1: The Battlemaster gets its best options at third level. The superiority dice - and any options to spend dice they get at 7th level they only get at 7th level because it wasn't good enough to pick at 3rd level
2: The resource pool leading to spammability.
3: The lack of anything remotely as evocative as any good encounter let alone daily powers

The battlemaster is to 4e as instant coffee is to actually good coffee.

Way to make comparisons that weren't relevant to the side discussion I was having! Great JOB!
 


Way to make comparisons that weren't relevant to the side discussion I was having! Great JOB!

You mean the part of the discussion where you claimed
5e has done a good job with that - champions/battlemasters/eldritch knights
I believe that was part of the side discussion you were having

I believe I annihilated the idea that 5e had done a good job with the battlemaster. It's instant coffee - and more or less caps out at level 3. It's a very bland option compared to what used to exist and does almost nothing to fix one of the fundamental problems with the fighter (at first level and at 20th level they move the same way and swing the same length of sharpened metal fast and hard).

Meanwhile if you are an Eldritch Knight the reason you have options is because you aren't being a fighter. Instead you're a third rate wizard.

Even the cases you trumpet therefore do a bad job at the things you claim they are supposed to be. Now less of the sarcasm please.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
But.... Fighters don't just do damage.
In AD&D land that really was the all and only imagine it how you like was such a great feature... honestly its not a new thought it was the argument against 3e feats. The extreme has already happened (to martial types only of course).
What's the difference between 4e and a battlemaster (the most 4e inspired subclass IMO). The biggest difference is that the battlemaster only have enough powers to use his special abilities a few times a fight.
The 5e fighter can indeed do grabs and shoves and trips but all only affect one enemy it takes virtually everything they got to affect all adjacent enemies and maximum level to boot their effectiveness at most everything other than just damage has been shot out the window in comparison.
 
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