D&D 4E Are powers samey?

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I wonder how common this is - and not just in 4e but for D&D in general.

Or to put it another way, for how many D&D players is the most interesting part of the game manipulation of the mechanics, rather than the (ostensible) fiction of the game?

I think you make a valid observation here and @Hussar's comment about power gamers seems relevant. And there are plenty of gamers who do enjoy that side of the of the RPG, whereas I tend to lean towards the fiction. Even with the powers I remember I had a love/hate relationship with them in that I hated their presentation (card like) but loved their descriptor. So the image of the power was great - but it was short-lived with the group I unfortunately found myself with.

I think my experience with 4e now would be very different to the one I originally had.
 

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I think you make a valid observation here and @Hussar's comment about power gamers seems relevant. And there are plenty of gamers who do enjoy that side of the of the RPG, whereas I tend to lean towards the fiction. Even with the powers I remember I had a love/hate relationship with them in that I hated their presentation (card like) but loved their descriptor. So the image of the power was great - but it was short-lived with the group I unfortunately found myself with.

I think my experience with 4e now would be very different to the one I originally had.

I always go from the character side as well. The visuals, personality and fiction of the PC matter more than the rules. The rules are just there to give me guidelines on how my character interacts with the campaign world.

Which actually kind of goes back to the prequel thread to this - I feel like 5E gives me more freedom to express that. The rules get out of my way and I think far less about what my PC's capabilities are other than normal tracking of resources.

Which may or may not be a completely different perspective than the people who prefer 4E.
 

I think you make a valid observation here and @Hussar's comment about power gamers seems relevant. And there are plenty of gamers who do enjoy that side of the of the RPG, whereas I tend to lean towards the fiction. Even with the powers I remember I had a love/hate relationship with them in that I hated their presentation (card like) but loved their descriptor. So the image of the power was great - but it was short-lived with the group I unfortunately found myself with.

I think my experience with 4e now would be very different to the one I originally had.

Heh. My very first experience with 4e was in a group where a combat took damn near three hours. We were like 1st or 2nd level and fighting hobgoblins? Been a while and the DM was running some module from 4e. Three hours to run the combat. Now, having played with other groups, I realized that the malfunction was pretty much entirely that DM. An online game, coupled with a typing speed best described as glacial and it was one of the most frustrating experiences I've ever had gaming.

So, yeah, I'm very, very sure that people's experiences get colored by their group.

----

@lowkey13 - I get that. A negative experience can certainly color perspective. From my perspective, I didn't just have two or three people on my ignore list. My ignore list got to be about two pages long and I wound up being so frustrated that I stopped coming to En World for about two years. It was honestly impossible to have anything resembling a conversation for the noise that was drowning out the voices. Everything was a negative. If mainstream news reported on D&D, something that now we celebrate, there'd be fifteen posters coming on to tell all and sundry how much 4e sucked and it was all garbage. No matter what, it was always bad. If it wasn't warlords or powers, or video gamey, or board gamey, or samey, or how 4e wasn't D&D, 4e wasn't even a role playing game, on and on and on. Daily. For YEARS.

So, yeah, I'm not exactly the poster child for patience when 4e threads come around. Look at this one. Look at the 1st page. By and large, most folks seemed to agree with my point that presentation plays a large role in the perception of 4e's saminess. Then you have several posters dropping in to tell us how 4e was a failed edition and no one liked it. Granted, those folks have apparently left the thread, their work in trying to disrupt the conversation and fan the flames largely done.

I guess my point is, having a run in with very bitter 4e fans isn't really that much of a shock in context. It's not that 4e cannot be criticized. It certainly can. There are all sorts of perfectly understandable criticisms that we can make about 4e. I, for one, though, am just so sick and tired of critics inventing terms, using language that can mean whatever they want it to mean, to take a wee all over the game. Over and over again. You want to criticize 4e? Go right ahead. Use actual English words for it and we'll be groovy. Invent neologisms with shifting definitions that even the critics don't agree with, and it's just yet another dumpster fire.
 

Heh, it's funny, but, when you talk about presentation, sometimes a slightly different wording can make a big difference. For example, this is from a different thread, but, I thought it apropos of this one:

It seems to have been, paradoxically, a combination of too many choices and too few, in a "worst-of-both-worlds" situation. The game presented the player with a plethora of power and feat choices, prompting complaints of analysis paralysis, but the balance of the system math was so tight that those choices had only marginal effects on the character's function (compared to what was possible in 3E, at least), prompting complaints of "sameyness".

Now, this, to me, makes sense. I can understand it, even if I might not totally agree. I think that the second part - that game balance marginalized the choices - is arguable. If you look at the difference effects, even within the PHB 1, for a given class at a given level, you're generally going to have a choice of 3 powers (give or take). And those three powers actually do vary pretty widely in effect. By and large, and I'm painting with a broad brush here, you're going to get something that bumps your character, something that affects a group, and something that does something to a single target at range.

I'm going to pick a completely random example - although you're going to have to trust me that this is random - I rolled a d12 for class and a d20 for level and got a 4 and a 13 - so a 13th level ranger power:

That would be a 13th level Encounter power and the player has the choice of:
  • Armor Splinter (2 attacks - must be dual wielding) deals 1W+Target takes AC Penalty=Wis or AC Penalty=Wis+2 if both hit.
  • Knockdown Shot - Ranged Weapon 2W plus knock prone
  • Nimble Defense (must be dual wielding) - 1 W + Gain AC bonus=Wis+2
  • Pinning Strike - Melee or Ranged - 1W+Target is immobilized until start of your next turn

Now, that's a pretty broad range of effects. However, none of those are unique. Absolutely not. Not only are they not unique to the Ranger class, they're not even unique WITHIN the ranger class. The ranger class can do similar effects with different level powers. Totally true.

However, and this is where presentation vs actual play comes into ... errm... well... play. :D

Yes, absolutely, those powers are similar to other powers from other classes and even other powers within the Ranger class. Totally true. But, a given character, in play, will most likely not keep choosing the same or similar powers. If you already have a power that immobilizes targets (for example), then you're most likely not going to double up. So, in play, a given character will likely have a pretty broad range of effects and those effects not only don't double up within that character, but, often don't double up with other characters in play.

IOW, my ranger immobilizes the target while your fighter beats him around the head and shoulders and the warlord lets me shoot him again on his turn.

A lot of the saminess vanishes in actual play. It particularly vanishes once you move beyond simply the PHB 1 and start into the other 30 (ish) classes released for 4e where the effects get even more differentiated.
 

(snip) Now, that's a pretty broad range of effects. However, none of those are unique. Absolutely not. Not only are they not unique to the Ranger class, they're not even unique WITHIN the ranger class. The ranger class can do similar effects with different level powers. Totally true. (snip)

I sometimes wonder whether 13th Age got something very right about powers: When you go up in level, earlier powers you have chosen improve in terms of damage and (sometimes) effects so you don't necessarily need to choose new powers - you can just boost the effects of the powers you have already chosen if you so choose.

That would have taken the pressure off the designers to keep trying to create something new even though there was nothing new to create.

(BTW, total 4E fanboi here: Best [aka favourite] edition of the past 39+ years!)
 

I think you make a valid observation here and @Hussar's comment about power gamers seems relevant. And there are plenty of gamers who do enjoy that side of the of the RPG, whereas I tend to lean towards the fiction. Even with the powers I remember I had a love/hate relationship with them in that I hated their presentation (card like) but loved their descriptor. So the image of the power was great - but it was short-lived with the group I unfortunately found myself with.

I think my experience with 4e now would be very different to the one I originally had.
To me, this avenue of inquiry and discussion seems much more profitable than the "same-y" debate!

I've bolded a part of your post. You refer to the presentation of the power which is (roughly) the aesthetics of the game pieces. That's an important aspect of playing a game - I've posted in the past that the sound of the handful of dice when resolving a joust in Prince Valiant evokes the thunder of the horses's hooves - but for me it's not determinative. of my enjoyment of a game. Maybe not for you either.

You also refer to the image of the power, which (I think) is something like your personal conception or imagining of it when you think about it coming into play. This seems like a sort-of "input" imagining or fiction.

What I noticed is a lack of reference to the output fiction, and to the shared fiction of the situation that the power interacts with to produce the output fiction. I don't know if that's just accidental on your part, or there's not much to say about it. For me, when I'm talking about the importance of the fiction in play, and how powers relate to that, it's that shared situational and output/consequence fiction that I've got in mind.

To give an example, which I think you'll recogise: the first combat that I ran in 4e was the river ambush from Night's Dark Terror. I've just puled out my notes for this, and can see that I wrote up a group of foes - a reaver (3rd level human guard from the MM), a mage (2nd level human from the MM), a halfing (1st level slinger from the MM), a backstabber (a dagger-using variant of the 2nd level human bandit from the MM) and 10 1st level minions - some slingers, some stabbers - adapted from the MM human rabble. That was 750 XP worth of enemies.

I drew up a pretty simple map of a short stretch of river on an old (as in, acquired some time in the 1980s) piece of graph paper, with banks at either end a bit over 20 sq apart, a sandbar in the middle, with a tree at one end and a sketch of the starting point of the PCs' boat (a bit 2 sq x 4 sq, plus some bits to squeeze into at the ends) and a raft (3 sq x 1 sq) by the bank for the bad guys. The bad guys ban was wooded.

I had notes on the concealment provided by the woods, and the muddy terrain of the river banks (difficult, and also steep on the side opposite the bad guys and so requiring DC 10 Athletics to get up). I also had notes on the cover provided to the PCs by their boat, the Acrobatics DC (10) to stand in it, and the skill challenge needed to disentangle the boat from the chain that the ambushers use to stop it. This included a note that every dead minion is a a success (because they're the ones making sure the PCs don't interfere with the chain).

Given I ran this encounter 11 years ago my memory isn't perfect. But I have memories of PCs trying to jump from the boat (where they were sitting ducks for the slingers) to the sandbar. Some ended up in the water. The mage and reaver came out on the raft, while a group of minions also swam out. I did find some notes that say that the PC wizard was alone on the boat, that the paladin was struggling through the water to the sandbar, that the warlock was on the sandbar taking cover behind the tree, and that the fighter was in hand-to-hand with e NPC reaver. I remember that he won that fight, as that was where he acquired his Black Peak halberd, which was his specialty weapon until he reforged the Dwarven thrower Whelm into the mordenkrad Overwhelm.

I remember that the encounter was difficult. The players found the terrain punishing at first, being stuck on a boat and only the fighter having Athletics training to swim to the sandbar - but being a dwarf and so fairly slow. The notes I found have the paladin having used one Lay on Hands plus his 1x/day multi-class Inspiring Word - the PCs were suffering hurt from the enemy slingers with their 20 sq range.

But it's pretty well-known that 4e delivers a reliable "heroic rally" for the PCs, and that must have happened here because the PCs prevailed in the end. I can't remember everything about it, but I do remember that they took control of the raft, and took the NPC mage prisoner. (A couple of sessions later she got turned into a wight by a goblin shaman's necromantic magic.) I can't

I don't think I could have designed this encounter without the advice from the DMG on how to use terrain and to integrate it with the enemy forces. The idea for the raft came from reading the vehicle chapter in Adventurer's Vault. And the mechanics were crucial to resolution, with the water and vegetation and mud and so on all manifesting in mechanical terms.

But it didn't feel anything like a chess board. Being in the water sucked for the warriors because they were heavily armoured guys trying to swim to a sandbar. The slingers were dangerous because they were missile troops attacking exposed enemies from a position of cover. Being stuck prone in a boat you don't know how to propel sucked because it should. Etc. The fact that everyone was working from symmetrical power suites affected decisions, in the sense of Can you afford to use that yet, or do you want to wait until the raft is within range? But it wasn't the focus of the action.

And what brought the fiction to life, for me at least but I think also my players, wasn't descriptive texts for powers (I rarely read it; I'm not sure about my players; the MM doesn't have any). It was the actual situation the PCs found themselves in, and the way that situation unfolded - which the mechanics were crucial to, but as means, not ends.
 

I always go from the character side as well. The visuals, personality and fiction of the PC matter more than the rules. The rules are just there to give me guidelines on how my character interacts with the campaign world.

<snip>

The rules get out of my way and I think far less about what my PC's capabilities are other than normal tracking of resources.
the play cycle. Everybody had the same at will, encounter daily beats. The decision points were all the same. When you level, determine what load out you're going to have for every session until you level again.

<snip>

So that's what I mean when I say powers all felt the same. The details varied, there was some variation, but most of the "uniqueness" was fluff while the play cycle was the same for everyone.

[EDIT]
Forgot to add in "everybody attacked with everything" as someone else mentioned. Never flipping around who rolls the dice to determine success or failure also contributed.
[/EDIT]
Are you able to say a bit more about how these two account of your play preferences fit together? I think you're using words like "rules", "fiction", "play cycle" etc differently from how I normally would, so I'm not quite getting the picture.
 

I'm going to pick a completely random example - although you're going to have to trust me that this is random - I rolled a d12 for class and a d20 for level and got a 4 and a 13 - so a 13th level ranger power:

That would be a 13th level Encounter power and the player has the choice of:
  • Armor Splinter (2 attacks - must be dual wielding) deals 1W+Target takes AC Penalty=Wis or AC Penalty=Wis+2 if both hit.
  • Knockdown Shot - Ranged Weapon 2W plus knock prone
  • Nimble Defense (must be dual wielding) - 1 W + Gain AC bonus=Wis+2
  • Pinning Strike - Melee or Ranged - 1W+Target is immobilized until start of your next turn

Now, that's a pretty broad range of effects. However, none of those are unique. Absolutely not. Not only are they not unique to the Ranger class, they're not even unique WITHIN the ranger class. The ranger class can do similar effects with different level powers. Totally true.
They actually are a bit unique to the ranger class within the confines of the PHB, though - only rangers have dual-wielding. Rogues also have some melee or ranged abilities, but I think not as many as rangers.

That's not to pick a fight or anything. Just to say I think there is less samey-ness even than you are conceding. (New classes and new powers do elide the differences a bit, though - I'll concede that.)

a given character, in play, will most likely not keep choosing the same or similar powers. If you already have a power that immobilizes targets (for example), then you're most likely not going to double up. So, in play, a given character will likely have a pretty broad range of effects and those effects not only don't double up within that character, but, often don't double up with other characters in play.
I agree with the latter, in part because I think you're understating class differentiation. With regard to the former, I think some players will build for variety and others for focus. Eg if you have a feat that buffs your immobilisation effects, then you might want to build up your reservoir of immobilising powers. The archer-ranger in our game, for instance, uses all or nearly all immediate action encounter powers, relying on Twin Strike as his go to for standard actions; the fighter has forced movement and AoE powers to combine with his Rushing Cleats, his Polearm Momentum, his epic destiny that buffs the radius of his close bursts, etc.

But the idea that an immolibising ranger, or close burst fighter, would feel "samey" is weird for me. People have played blaster mages or healer clerics for years, and have played fighters whose only decision on a combat round is who they should attack. Similarity in mechanical effect of action declarations is hardly unusual for D&D characters.
 

Are you able to say a bit more about how these two account of your play preferences fit together? I think you're using words like "rules", "fiction", "play cycle" etc differently from how I normally would, so I'm not quite getting the picture.

Maybe? Oh, and sprinkle some "there's nothing wrong with that", "it's just a preference" and "it just wasn't a good fit for me" into some of the latter part of the discussion. Oh, and I'm also just saying what I saw in play. I know some of the later books and essentials changed things a bit, but I don't remember anyone not using the standard patterns from the first 2 books.

Imagine I want to play Gimli from LOTR. He runs around killing orcs left and right, sometimes cleaving and getting multiple orcs. But it's pretty much just him running up and hitting things with his axe. Legoland Legolas is a bit further up the fantasy warrior chain (because elf) and can do so-so-CGI acrobatic maneuvers to climb up on top of the oliphaunts or use a shield as a sled and so on. Now and then he does double shots or just stabs someone with an arrow.

All of those things are covered by the 5E rules. Gimli is just a great weapon fighter, Legolas has sharpshooter when he makes impossible shots or stabs things with an arrow. The double arrow thing would make sense as an action surge. He probably has expertise in acrobatics. Legolas stretches what is possible and it's a little over the top but it never made me groan too hard.

But ultimately they're just really, really good with their chosen weapons. While they may get tired eventually there's never any feeling that they're doing some maneuver that can't be repeated.

So in 5E that's what I'm doing. I'm just an great weapon fighter or an archer doing my thing round after round. Every once in a while I can push myself even further with an action surge* but I only have so much physical endurance.

Contrast that to 4E. I always had to be thinking in terms of AEDU rules in order to be effective. Am I in position to use encounter A or B? Oh wait, B would be great but I already used it. Should I use my daily in this fight and turn myself into Taz the looney toons tasmanian devil doing his spinning vortex of death and give myself an aura of weapon damage? That play cycle of deciding what power to use was the same for all PCs.

Because of those questions I'm not relaxing and simply enjoying chopping down orcs, maybe double checking to see if I need to go to the aid of the halfling. I'm constantly analyzing what card I should play next and when. It's an extra layer of complexity layered on top. I'm less likely to stay in character shouting battle cries because I'm thinking through my options.

On top of that a lot of the powers just wouldn't have worked in a movies like LOTR. Why can I do something once and not again? Even with encounter powers - yeah I get that so-and-so isn't going to fall for it twice but this is a second wave and they couldn't have seen me. How is my rogue buddy can throw enough daggers (or single magical dagger as we ran it) to hit 9 people and blind them all? If a PC can do it once a day why can't they do it repeatedly?

So to me 4E felt more like a video game with power cool down periods. But it works better in a video game because generally the cool down periods are a minute or less. It broke my sense of verisimilitude, I could no longer envision my PC as Gimli or Legolas.

Spell casters have a bit of a similar play cycle, but they're more flexible. If I had a choice I'd probably use spell points because they make more sense to me, but it's not that big of a deal.

To summarize I get that people come from different perspectives. My issues are not universal and I get that sometimes the analogies I make could be construed as put-downs, but that is certainly not my intent. It's just trying to illuminate my viewpoint.

*To be honest, I'm not even horribly fond of action surge. I doubt I will ever play a battlemaster. I use action surges because I have them, but they still feel too much like cool down powers. The protagonist using the equivalent of Second Wind to get back into the fight is a pretty common trope even if it doesn't make much sense.
 

A negative experience can certainly color perspective. From my perspective, I didn't just have two or three people on my ignore list. My ignore list got to be about two pages long and I wound up being so frustrated that I stopped coming to En World for about two years. It was honestly impossible to have anything resembling a conversation for the noise that was drowning out the voices. Everything was a negative. If mainstream news reported on D&D, something that now we celebrate, there'd be fifteen posters coming on to tell all and sundry how much 4e sucked and it was all garbage. No matter what, it was always bad. If it wasn't warlords or powers, or video gamey, or board gamey, or samey, or how 4e wasn't D&D, 4e wasn't even a role playing game, on and on and on. Daily. For YEARS.

You forgot some of my personal favorite old chestnuts. 50 + page threads about:

- You can’t use powers against the environment because “target: creatures”.

- You can’t use Fire Keyword Powers (look up what the Keyword does) to set fire to the environment.

- Skill Challenges are just an exercise in die rolling (where failures don’t change the fiction/situation and any fiction-irrelevant action declaration must be honored).

- Player-induced Forced Movement (a) must be heeded by allies and (b) the only fiction that could come out of it is that your PC is a bitch and the PC enabling their movement is “bossy.”

- “Schrodinger’s World” where nothing is persistent or objective (locks, doors, obstacles in general) because of subjective DCs or “Dissociated Mechanics and Nonsense Fiction”.


Damage on a Miss and “Fighters Cast Spells” and Fail Forward is “EZMode” and “player entitlement” and board gamey and video gamey and not an RPG and all the rest were “great”...but for my money, those 5 where cocksure detractors would either drive-by with snark or committedly dig-in... those were my “favorite”.
 
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