D&D 5E Have we rebalanced the Champion Yet?

[Garthanos]

I thought it was your idea - maybe someone elses. Get an extra attack by allowing enemies to attack you.

OK yes that part was my idea so you are adding conditions under which you can do it?

 

[FrogReaver]

OK yes that part was my idea so you are adding conditions under which you can do it?

no. under which I would use it.

 

[Garthanos]

no. under which I would use it.

Ah gotcha now understood.

 

[Garthanos]

There is a feature in 4e where the striker class ie the guys doing the most potential damage was also somewhat less defended and having fewer hit points. This "give an opportunity to attack" or even make an exertion and spend hit points or alternatively hit die is basically using increased risk to implement that... I think its actually better flavor for the fighter to do this as choice since they have better defenses on which to trade and your I would do this with higher armor class (20 sounds extreme given plate is 18) and a second wind is an intended effect ... the person willing to try it more often is going to get more danger and bang.

 

[Xeviat]

Switching out the champion's improved crit for +1 to hit and +2 damage, weapon focus and specialization as it were, would feel right to me, but earlier when I ran the numbers on the comparisons, +2 damage ontop of improved crit ended up being more damage than the BM at the higher levels, especially at 20.

But, I purposefully was looking at the really basic BM maneuvers, not Repost and Precision, because the math in those is much harder to do. The BM gets all those riders, but the Champion has other features other than damage, eventually, so that's fine.

For me, it's just a matter of increasing that 3rd level ability to be something that feels worth a whole level. I don't want to make the champion a more complicated class.

 

[Garthanos]

But, I purposefully was looking at the really basic BM maneuvers, not Repost and Precision, because the math in those is much harder to do.

Those are from what I read the most commonly taken and really seem to be the easiest to translate into what is the best damage a BM can do. Enemies will attack and will miss in a fight you get the riposte. You will attack and you will miss sometimes too and precision attack gives you a replacement opportunity to hit. They seem easier to compute

 

[Garthanos]

I would definitely be taking those two even for flavor the one is evocative of a more sophisticated fighting style and the other is the key to being able to do cool stunts if you want to (ie my robinhood archery shots)

 

[FrogReaver]

Switching out the champion's improved crit for +1 to hit and +2 damage, weapon focus and specialization as it were, would feel right to me, but earlier when I ran the numbers on the comparisons, +2 damage ontop of improved crit ended up being more damage than the BM at the higher levels, especially at 20.

But, I purposefully was looking at the really basic BM maneuvers, not Repost and Precision, because the math in those is much harder to do. The BM gets all those riders, but the Champion has other features other than damage, eventually, so that's fine.

For me, it's just a matter of increasing that 3rd level ability to be something that feels worth a whole level. I don't want to make the champion a more complicated class.

IMO - you have to pick your balance point comparison first. If you are wishy washy with that then this will end up as a failed exercise. I don't care what you actually use so much that you pick one and stick to it

A few additional points:
1. Anything that modifies a champions attacks will be weaker than a battlemaster early and stronger than it later. There is no way around it
2. Which brings me to - You must think about the error tolerance. How close is close enough? To me a champion doing 20ish less damage per day at level 3-4 is acceptable. Is that for you? Him doing 50 more at level 20 is also acceptable.

For me the super simple solution of adding +2 damage or +1 hit / +1 dmg works great because it's within my tolerance for balanced (at least before feats).

If that doesn't work then the next simplest option to look would be to have a mechanic that adds damage to an attack once per turn.

If that doesn't work I think you are basically in activated ability territory as your next most simple mechanics.

 

[FrogReaver]

I would definitely be taking those two even for flavor the one is evocative of a more sophisticated fighting style and the other is the key to being able to do cool stunts if you want to (ie my robinhood archery shots)

There's a lot of maneuvers I like.

Commander's Strike (when theirs a rogue in the party)
Disarming Attack
Goading Attack
Manuevering Attack
Menacing Attack
Parry
Precision Attack
Rally
Riposte
Trip Attack

 

[Garthanos]

There's a lot of maneuvers I like.

Some are clearly too variable like the one does the party have a potent single target striker in position ... enough less certain that I think Mearles himself said to ignore that difference. Others are not far different than riposte or precision strike but many do work out the same when used properly but they are harder to get the situation a lot harder.. as for the math I would go with what was mentioned by @Cap'n Kobold its pretty good for some of the others too.