D&D 5E An Argument for Why Paladins are the Strongest Class in 5E D&D

[Ashrym]

Here's the thing. There is no highest dexterity among them because they are identical creatures. There is no tie because there was only a single roll for the entire group. So when do they go? At the same time.

This can only happen with DM controlled creatures, though, so it neatly avoids confusion between player characters since they always invoke a tie breaker (their choice or die rolls).

"If a tie occurs, the DM decides the order among tied DM-controlled creatures..."

4 goblins have the same initiative count, for example, but the DM normally just states what each is doing in the order the DM determines just like a tie. I don't think going on the same turn is the same as precisely the same time. Generally a reaction to time it with a readied action is required for that.

 

[Seramus]

"If a tie occurs, the DM decides the order among tied DM-controlled creatures..."

4 goblins have the same initiative count, for example, but the DM normally just states what each is doing in the order the DM determines just like a tie. I don't think going on the same turn is the same as precisely the same time. Generally a reaction to time it with a readied action is required for that.

There's no tie, since there is only a single roll for the entire group.

I can totally understand DM's who run it sequentially.
But it's a neat rule that is often overlooked.

 

[Ashrym]

There's no tie, since there is only a single roll for the entire group.

Which means each member of that group takes actions on the same turn, not at the same time. Initiative determines the order of the turns. It's the very first sentence of the rule.

A turn represent actions as they fit in the round, such as movement. Just because Bob the fighter moves 30 ft during the turn doesn't mean he was in both the starting location and ending location at the same time because both states occurred on the same turn.

A turn does not represent a specific point in time where all activities on the turn occur simultaneously.

 

[Seramus]

Which means each member of that group takes actions on the same turn, not at the same time. Initiative determines the order of the turns. It's the very first sentence of the rule.

A turn represent actions as they fit in the round, such as movement. Just because Bob the fighter moves 30 ft during the turn doesn't mean he was in both the starting location and ending location at the same time because both states occurred on the same turn.

A turn does not represent a specific point in time where all activities on the turn occur simultaneously.

"At the same time" is a valid order to take a turn. This only occurs in the case of identical creatures controlled by the DM, which avoids any confusion in adjudication. I think people assume the DM CANNOT choose "at the same time" for the order of his monster because of the tie breaker rules. But in the case of identical creatures the rules literally say they go "at the same time."

 

[Ashrym]

"At the same time" is a valid order to take a turn. This only occurs in the case of identical creatures controlled by the DM, which avoids any confusion in adjudication. I think people assume the DM CANNOT choose "at the same time" for the order of his monster because of the tie breaker rules. But in the case of identical creatures the rules literally say they go "at the same time."

Well, no. Initiative does not state anything happens at the same time. It says the go on the same turn. On the same turn is not the same thing as at that same time because a turn is not a specific point in time. At the same time on that turn is something you've added.

The group initiative check is just there to keep it faster and simpler.

 

[Seramus]

Well, no. Initiative does not state anything happens at the same time. It says the go on the same turn. On the same turn is not the same thing as at that same time because a turn is not a specific point in time. At the same time on that turn is something you've added.

It literally says they go at the same time. I think any further discussion has reached the "Agree to Disagree" point. But it was a pleasure having the chat.

 

[FrogReaver]

Here's the thing. There is no highest dexterity among them because they are identical creatures. There is no tie because there was only a single roll for the entire group. So when do they go? At the same time.

This can only happen with DM controlled creatures, though, so it neatly avoids confusion between player characters since they always invoke a tie breaker (their choice or die rolls).

seems obvious that if players require a tiebreaker then so npcs. I guess they thought it would be obvious the dm Determines which creature goes when if they have the same initiative. Thank god for now more RAW 3.5e lawyering.

 

[Seramus]

seems obvious that if players require a tiebreaker then so npcs. I guess they thought it would be obvious the dm Determines which creature goes when if they have the same initiative. Thank god for now more RAW 3.5e lawyering.

I don't blame anyone for running it that way. It's definitely easier to handle everything sequentially.

 

[fearsomepirate]

What rules do you need? They both take their actions and resolve them at the same time.

There's no such rule in 5e. We're talking about RAW, not your house rules.

Cut it out with the strawman.

Your position is that RAW, if two enemies of the same type cast a spell with instantaneous duration, like fireball, they both land at precisely the same moment due to the casters taking their turns at the same time, resulting in overlapping duration and thus only one of them doing damage. This can only be true if they're acting in perfect synchronicity. Since the spell duration is instantaneous, if they're not moving their arms and speaking the magic words at precisely the same time, the durations won't overlap. If one pauses for a tenth of a second to spit out his bubblegum before casting and the other doesn't, you've got no duration overlap.

Or to use Magic: the Gathering as an example

MtG isn't an example of D&D 5e.

 

[Seramus]

There's no such rule in 5e. We're talking about RAW, not your house rules.

My position is discussing RAW.

This can only be true if they're acting in perfect synchronicity. Since the spell duration is instantaneous, if they're not moving their arms and speaking the magic words at precisely the same time, the durations won't overlap. If one pauses for a tenth of a second to spit out his bubblegum before casting and the other doesn't, you've got no duration overlap.

The rules specifically say they happen at same time. There is nothing that prevents two DM controlled creatures from taking their turn at the same time. The precedent is literally written into the description of initiative. It even passes the common sense test, since we can both draw a gun and shoot each other successfully.

You don't have to agree with me, but I consider it RAW.